| Author | Message | ||
     Benm2 |
If Buell was to make a "limited edition" high-end model, why can't it be done with the XB9 as it is? How bout this: 1. XB9 crank dimensions, with a lightened crank & titanium rods. 2. Nikasil cylinders, 1100cc's or so, so there's still enough meat around the studs to keep the engine street-stable. 3. Titanium intake valves, stainless exhausts, with Ti retainers. Offset the intake (like the FX bikes) and use larger intake valves, and CNC port the heads. 4. 3M MMC pushrods. 5. More cam duration. 6. Ceramic bearings in transmission. 7. Chain drive. (come on, its a homologation special) 8. No passenger accomodations 9. Full fairing, with available factory bolt-in belly pan 10. Ohlins everywhere 11. Ram air, and those awesome looking dual-runner intakes 12. Titanium exhaust, with a "real" available race muffler. 13. Run a less conservative battery size. That should produce about a 10-20 lb lighter XB, with 110hp being fully achievable stock. Plus, NO new motor. XB11RR | ||
| José_quiñones |
That is correct. in terms of "Big" Twin sales, 2004 was Buell's best year ever from what I have read. The overall number shipped for 2004 (9,857) was down 117 units compared to 2003, but mainly because Blast shipments have taken a nose dive. That also helps to explain why revenues were up, they were selling the more expensive XB models than Blasts. Speaking of the Blast, that bike is WAY overdue for a total makeover. I agree Buell is doing fine, but it depends on how you want to define "fine". Many people would be "Fine" to sell 10 thousand bikes a year for as long as they can make money doing it, but I think HD/Buell has larger production targets in mind for Buell. Look at it this way: in 2003, there were about 3719 651cc+ "Big Twin" Buells registered in the US & Canada. There were 482 Buell dealers in the US and Canada for 2003. That averages out to 8 XB Buells per dealer for the year. Blast sales do not figure into this average. The average US/Canadian HD Dealer sells 330 bikes during that same time (238,243/723). BMW sold about 103 bikes per dealer in 2003 (15,299/148). A dealer network of 400+ should be able to easily sell more than 10,000 Buells a year, assuming there is a market demand for it. The HD website has not been updated with the final 2004 numbers so I don't have a breakdown for Europe/Asia/US registrations/dealer numbers. Speaking of dealers, the dealer contraction thing is another matter, but I think it's a better approach to just keep the dealers that understand and want to sell/service the brand. So you might have to go farther to get better service. Inconvenient for many, yes, but better for the future growth of the remaining Buell dealers & the brand in general. ____________________________________________________ Hey anonymouse, you did not answer my question about the infamous "Dusselforf" test. Info I read was that the VROD engine went past 500 hours nonstop, while a Road King Twin Cam hit 200 hours before letting go and a Softail Twin Cam B lasted 150 hours. How many hours did the XL/XB last, 250, 300, 500? Next post, if there is one, will be from Daytona. (Message edited by José_quiñones on March 04, 2005) | ||
| Budo |
"Speaking of dealers, the dealer contraction thing is another matter, but I think it's a better approach to just keep the dealers that understand and want to sell/service the brand. " Well maybe. My local dealer blows (Bumpas HD/Buell of Memphis) however the next nearest dealer is 3.5 hours away. If not for my local dealer many folks would never see a Buell in the flesh. Some people have checked out the Buell at the local dealer and then made the 3.5 hour trip to buy. So while they are a poor dealer (IMHO) at least there is exposure for the brand. Intersting side note, they told me the other day that they can't get XB9's, they are on backorder. Oh, how do I determine that they are a crummy dealership, simple, compare them to Modesto! I got way better service from Modesto 1500 miles away than my local dealership. | ||
| Jscott |
I agree with Benm2 - that bike would be my next purchase. The full faired FX bikes are the sweetest Buells I've seen. | ||
| S1eric |
Just give me the 1348cc motor and twin throttle bodies. I like the rest of the XB package. S1Eric | ||
| Firebolt428 |
Does anyone have a picture of the Street Rod? | ||
| Midknyte |
An observation & a question... 1) A lot of new people on board here recently. 2) Grumblings over the engine here... 3) It's still "winter" for a large portion of us. I'm wondering if these 3 things are related. I mean - those of you leading this thread - are you new owners? I ask this because I wonder whether or not you've had the benefit of the ride-time-induced-grin-factor? Seeing where Buell has been and where it is now and where it appears to me to be going (all good), and having some seat time from the past season, I find it hard [personally] to complain about anything really. I could give a lick whether a water cooled entry makes it into the lineup. I'd welcome it and I'd be interested. But I don't believe it is "necessary". I am thoroughly enjoying this big, loud, strong, twin thumping lump in sportbikes clothing. These things are such an atypical beast, I can't get past the enjoyment of ownership to go around saying anything at all negative. We're years ahead of the EPA regs already. Progress is not going to go backwards. And besides - the EPA requirements are a political football. Negotiable (do you vote?). Not a law of nature that has to be chased. Now there's rumblings that the mothership is not supporting the Buell line and putting enough money into it. Huh? The XB is a direct result of HD R&D dollars. It came out of nowhere and has refinements not seen in [production] metrics spanning the life of sportbiking. It had what? A two to three year development period? It's an amazing thing to behold. How can anyone believe that there aren't incredible things waiting in the wings? It's not a matter of saying "We'll get there...". It's here and the future is blinding. I can't help but wonder if we'd even be having this conversation if it were september. I think some of us need some ride time... Kool-Aid & Rum. Yum! | ||
| Ingemar |
I don't understand these engine threads ....  | ||
| Budo |
Quote:"I could give a lick whether a water cooled entry makes it into the lineup. I'd welcome it and I'd be interested. But I don't believe it is "necessary"." So do you think the water cooled entry in the Harley Davidson lineup (V-Rod) is necessary? Just wondering. | ||
| Josh_ |
>I don't understand these engine threads It's winter ... >So do you think the water cooled entry in the Harley Davidson lineup (V-Rod) is necessary? Sales are sure going well on the VRod and they now have a bike to compete in that class. Nice to see then break out of the mold. Not that I would own one (I'd prefer my 92 Hugger 883) | ||
| Xlcr |
I just fired up my Cafe Racer and took it for the its first real ride of the season yesterday. But while I was out there I noticed all the young guys were riding their new 600 Race Replicas, but none of them were on Buells or Harleys. They are the future of motorcycling in America, and they won't even bother to test ride a Buell, they just look at the HP figures and quarter mile times, and it's all over, end of story. | ||
| Midknyte |
So do you think the water cooled entry in the Harley Davidson lineup (V-Rod) is necessary? Just wondering. Necessary in terms of expanding marketshare, yes. It's invigorating the brand and bringing in a new breed of customers just as the inclusion of Buell has done. I'm sure that it is also bringing in metric conversions among those that feel the air-cooled engines are old-school. Necessary in terms of EPA, no - Erik is proving that the old mill is still flexible. | ||
| Budo |
"They are the future of motorcycling in America, and they won't even bother to test ride a Buell, they just look at the HP figures and quarter mile times, and it's all over, end of story." Many of us have been saying that for years. Also with the younger guys, they might not be able to hustle a bike around a corner but when they hit a straight they want to be able to keep up. The XB does not really do that. I blew the motor in my 1998 S1W (intake seal leak) running at about 125mph for a while trying to keep a CBR600 insight. While the XB12s might top out at 135 a CBR is good for 150 or so. Now you might think it is stupid to run that fast on the street but a number of guys in my club do just that, tho I am not one of them. So the XB IMHO is not able to reel in a 600 anything and that to many of these kids is humiliating and they will not tolerate it. But here is the problem, let's say for arguments sake that Buell produces a killer looking bike with a liquid cooled V-twin motor that puts 120hp to the ground with all the correct suspension fittings, wheels, etc, think Ducati S4R. It is priced at $10,999 and sits next to a XB12S also priced at $10,999. Now which one is going to sell? I would suspect that XB sales would take a nose dive, but that is just me. (Message edited by budo on March 04, 2005) | ||
| Budo |
Midknyte -- I agree. | ||
| Xlcr |
Have you ever heard of 'halo effect'? Car manufacturers use it all of the time. You would have to charge more for the water-pumper, but it would bring people into the showroom. Then, after admiring the model they can't afford, they settle for the one they can afford until they get a bit richer. This method has kept Ducati in business for years. | ||
| Anonymous |
The infamouse "Dusseldorf test" is a joke, and has no relationship to the real world. Any real powertrain engineer who knows what it is would agree with that. Pure PR BS, you gibbering idiot. Stop spouting convenient things you read and know nothing about. | ||
| Sandblast |
I dont think a stock 600 in the real world will go 150, unless there is a jockey on it and a tail wind. | ||
| Boxjoint |
But here is the problem, let's say for arguments sake that Buell produces a killer looking bike with a liquid cooled V-twin motor that puts 120hp to the ground with all the correct suspension fittings, wheels, etc, think Ducati S4R. It is priced at $10,999 and sits next to a XB12S also priced at $10,999. Now which one is going to sell? I would suspect that XB sales would take a nose dive, but that is just me." All of the 12's that I have been seeing are selling around 9k. I personally would not buy a 12 for over $10k. I would be willing to pay 9k OTD. Think of the Monster lineup. The origonal monster 800 was going for around 11k. Now you can get the heavily upgraded S2R (an 800cc) and they are listed aroun $8300. I would tink a liquid cooled model would sell for around 11k and the AC models will be around 9k. | ||
| Thepup |
"I dont think a stock 600 in the real world will go 150, unless there is a jockey on it and a tail wind."A stock 600 will do 150 with no problem.I know someone who has done it on a Kaw 600 more than once.SportRider has top speed for every 600 over 150. | ||
| Thepup |
"But here is the problem, let's say for arguments sake that Buell produces a killer looking bike with a liquid cooled V-twin motor that puts 120hp to the ground with all the correct suspension fittings, wheels, etc, think Ducati S4R. It is priced at $10,999 and sits next to a XB12S also priced at $10,999. Now which one is going to sell? I would suspect that XB sales would take a nose dive, but that is just me." What would be the problem,Isn't the point to sell bikes,regardless of which model it is. | ||
| Grndskpr |
Pure PR BS, you gibbering idiot. More insight from the Anons thanks it shows that not all anons are created equal R | ||
| Court |
Ahhhhhh...."complimentary" and "competing" goods. And relative elasticity of demand in the presence of another product. We'll soon be hitting the statistical evaluation of "diferentiation", the pure science of does a consumer see those two bikes, sitting beside each other, as in fact "different". Does, for instance buying one obviate or exacerbate the need for the other. My favorite chapter and a chance to use my formal scoolin' I said I'd never use. Trust me, the folks at Buell and HD seldom operate in a "who knows?...let's just try it and see what happens" enviroment. Would you gamble your house, family and fortune on the flip of a coin? Erik Buell wouldn't....I'm bettin'. As you do this, start defining the business model and it's parts. Think of having a 600HP engine (HD $$$) with the state of the wheel (Buell technology) and not being able to understand what a drive shaft is. As you start....I suggest you prepare what the term de jour has dubbed a "mission statement" that respects, above all else, a business, to be viable, must produce a return. Careful, don't be lured in to assuming the return is comprised of direct revenue dollars. What if the development of a certain Buell reduces by $400,000, the cost of a coming Sportster model? Who gets the $400,000? You are now beginning to see beyond the motorcycle. I've said that the motorcycle is 5% of the motorcycle manufacturing business. I pulled the number out of the air, but the Hanlons did much to make me look smarter than I am. Please.....continue. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Your argument that the kids riding the 600s are the future of motorcycling? Some of them yes, but I bet at least half of those kids will either sell their bike when they get married and have kids or they will crash and never buy another bike. From my experience the folks who have owned motorcycles for over 20 years of their lives usually have owned all differnet sorts of bikes and hp numbers were never their first concern. | ||
| Buelliedan |
The Hanlons were business idiots. Spending 2 million dollars on a paint booth!! And then of course they each thought they deserved $400,000 a year salries. maybe they weren't idiots, maybe they were just greedy. | ||
| Grndskpr |
From my experience the folks who have owned motorcycles for over 20 years of their lives usually have owned all differnet sorts of bikes and hp numbers were never their first concern. Re phrase that, HP wasnt there concern after they learned to ride, or had a number of years under there belt As it stands, the first real bike i ever owned had the most HP, the latest bike i have aquired had the least amount of HP, over the course of 20 years, one learns hp does not equate to speed, but i have to admit, it did take the better part of 20 years to learn that, now i guess i can learn to actually ride the bike R | ||
| Road_thing |
Grndskpr/Buelliedan: Absolutely! And over the last 40 years of riding, I've learned that speed, while sometimes entertaining in a carnival-ride kinda way, is not the be-all and end-all of motorcycling. Personally, I get the biggest kick out of riding smoothly and safely, without smoke, sparks or drama, and without terrorizing my fellow motorists, regardless of the number of their wheels. If I happen to accomplish all that at an elevated velocity, well, cool, but I won't trade safe & smooth for fast. Maybe that's why I've still got all my fingers and toes despite my advanced years and high mileage! I'm proud to be able to say that, in 40 years and God-only-knows how many miles, I've never (yet) broken a bone as a result of a bike accident. rt Of course, on the other hand, it might just be that I ride like a p***y! | ||
| Blake |
More germain to the comparison of top speed might be fully faired versus unfaired configurations. I betcha that a fully faired XB with a bit taller final drive would do just fine in a top speed contest against the current crop of Japanese 600's. Not that it makes any difference to me. My Cyclone will smack the rev limit at 7 grand in 5th gear. I did it once just to see. Stock gearing. How fast was I going? WAY too fast. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
R_T, A most excellent summary -- Thank you! G2 | ||
| Madduck |
Blake, The current crop of fairings are not very efficient but are probably capble of adding 15mph on top of say 135mph top end. We added about 20mph with our fairing at bonnevile on an XR750, but we were just looking for top speed. Concerns for looking cool and weather protection will reduce it some. RR1000 type fairing on a buell should easily add 20 mph to top end and will also subtract seconds from acceleration times too. The JDees performance crew probably have a much better feel for that as they have both a modern buell engine and the fairing. | ||
| Budo |
"All of the 12's that I have been seeing are selling around 9k. I personally would not buy a 12 for over $10k. I would be willing to pay 9k OTD." My local dealer is going by MSRP. Plust all the usual stuff, I dunno how much out the door. |
