| Author | Message | ||
     Predius |
I've made the executive bad decision that I want to race the RSD Super Hooligan series. After reviewing the rules and stewing on what bikes fit, seems to me an air cooled Buell is the way to roll. To that end I've found a former race machine that I *think* is a 98 S1, in parts. Motor is mostly apart, chassis is held up with straps and clamps, parts are in boxes, some of which have to be located, it's a project. The good news, it's got a lot of period correct racey bits and had been on a track in anger so should be a somewhat sorted base to start from. In the mean time, I made this decision late in the season, to commit for the last race of the year I need something running by the end of August. Current plan is to find another tube frame bike that's running, put the suspension and wheels on it and deal with being down on power/etc just to get on track while the race motor gets dealt with properly over the winter. The project bike has WP forks, will wheels/brakes swap to the later Showas directly? IIRC Showas require matching clamps? The project bike has a later style cast swingarm, not the box tube style I'd expect on an S1, looks like the X1's swingarm. Was that a common swap? Any tuber I should avoid while looking for something that will easily share parts with the S1? I'd consider an XB to be on a newer platform, but having a Penske and multiple sets of lightweight wheels available has me wanting to stick with this gen, unless the XB will easily adapt to the older forks and rear wheels? | ||
| Fxdrydr |
Nothing to offer as far as your questions, but cool project & wishing you much success! | ||
| Upthemaiden |
Sounds like a fun project! I hope most of the parts are there. Sourcing random parts for these bikes can definitely add up over time. As far as your questions... are the heads on your race motor black? in 98 they made the 90hp S1 and the 100hp S1W. Only real difference between the motors was different heads, so if you're getting work done to your engine over winter it won't really matter either way, but the black heads are a big plus otherwise. You should be fine using any wheels from a tuber. There were the CNC aluminum PM wheels that people really liked(but I always thought were ugly...), the Marchesini wheels, and then the cheaper cast wheels that looked just like the Marchesini's. Any of those wheels will fit. People have made XB wheels fit, but it's a few extra steps in the process, especially considering the XBs used a completely different front brake setup. Unless you're looking to really modify things, I'd skip the XB parts. The aluminum swingarm was a pretty common swap on the S1. I switched mine from the steel swingarm to the aluminum one. Pretty much a direct swap although you do need the mounting block or you can modify the original one with a die grinder, and then it has a shorter axle and different chain tensioners. Upside if you're using it as a race bike, you can drill and tap the solid aluminum swingarm to install spools for a paddock stand. A lot of parts cross over from a lot of different bikes, but there's some differences... the rear shocks are interchangeable but there are 2 shock mounts depending on which you have. The X1 and S1 use the same shifters, S3 and M2 won't work. M2's have a 7" headlight, S1/X1s use a 7.5" headlight. The X1 and S3 and later M2s had digital odometers so the gauges won't be a straight swap. S1 and X1 have similar style flyscreens but the hump is on opposite sides... later bikes are FI so the tanks may look similar but the petcock/fuel pump fittings are different, so there's little differences like that. Best bet is just to ask if there's a specific part and people will be able to tell you. Don't forget the pictures! | ||
| Predius |
Woot, got my account working again. I ended up buying an 08 XB12XT that did did the bare minimum to make legal and safe and ran it at COTA. I'm now hooked on the bikes and the SuperHooligan program is awesome. In the mean time, the rest of the S1 project should be making it's way to me soon to revive. | ||
| Ratbuell |
To clarify one of the statements above - the black-head Thunderstorm motor had many differences from the earlier Lightning motors: Heads - different ports, valves, etc Pistons - higher compression Cams - different profiles, to play nicely with the changes listed above Ignition box - different advance curves and base timing, to compensate for detonation potential from the raised compression As noted - the thunderstorm motor is definitely preferred, but it is also an easy swap if you have a lightning motor and want the increased power and torque. Love to see photos when the parts/pieces are there! | ||
| Falloutnl |
Having owned an X1, and S1 and an M2, I think I can say that both the showa conventional forks of the M2 and the upside down forks of the X1 would be an improvement over the WP forks that came on the S1. The aluminium swing arm swap is another thing that you could consider mandatory if you're going to be racing the bike. The stock steel part makes for a pretty wobbly affair. Good news is that those alu swing arms cost very little on ebay. Good on ya for saving an S1 from the scrap heap though! You're doing the world a service, for sure. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
"Good news is that those alu swing arms cost very little on ebay." Just try to wait for one that comes with all the random parts you need, like the axle adjusters. Otherwise you get a good deal on the swingarm and then have to spend just as much tracking down the other little stuff. You can make the S1 swingarm mounting block and axle work with a little grinding and a washer, but the tensioner setup is completely different. | ||
| Falloutnl |
Ah could be that I got lucky on our local craigslist equivalent. I think mine came with all of that stuff and I paid like 200 eur for it. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
It's been about 7 years, but I wanna say I found the whole setup, including the new mounting block for somewhere around $150? A local find would've been a big plus though. Swapping that mounting block turned out to be quite a project. Trying to find the right combination of wrench lengths and directions and angle to get in there on each one eventually convinced me I'd just grind the current one instead, but that was taking forever with the dremel(probably quick work with a die grinder and a good burr), so I just kept plugging away at it and eventually got them swapped. I don't race the bike, so honestly I don't think I noticed any difference at all in the ride quality, but as a cosmetic upgrade, it's definitely the best thing you can do for an S1. | ||
| Predius |
Bike is in the garage, VIN decodes as a 1998 S1W, matching expectations. Unfortunately, it also appears to have frame damage from it's crash back in the day. Right side lower forward frame tube is pinched in the middle. Forks are OEM WP units, Penske shock, aluminum swingarm, nice aluminum oil tank... gotta go through it and see what is there, what isn't. I also need to strip some of it and get cleaning ASAP as there is an oxidation problem starting in a bunch of places. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
That's a huge bummer about the frame... I don't know what you paid for it, but considering the penske shock aluminum oil tank, not to mention the S1W engine, it's probably worth seeing if you can just track down a new frame for it, if it's not something you feel comfortable welding. is the damage on one of the straight parts of the tube, or is it where it was already bent? How did you find the bike? I can't imagine the owner didn't know there was frame damage when they sold it, and they were just hoping that with the bike in parts you wouldn't notice until after it was sold. | ||
| Predius |
I haven't paid anything for the bike, it's a friend's machine they've had for a couple decades, owned by a friend and racing teammate who passed on. The bike has both historical value being a former AMA machine, and sentimental value, and was offered to me to revive for hooligan racing but turned out to need far more work than I could pull off in the time I had, hence getting the XB12XT. In the mean time I did say I'd help reviving it so I'd like to keep my word. He'll be keeping it, it'll either see vintage racing/endurance duty or if I really take a liking to it I can hooligan race it. The pinch is in the straight section, and doesn't appear to have tweaked the frame geometry visibly. I can also see the frame has been welded on before, there is a brace on the left side to the front motor mount that isn't present on other S1/S1W pics I've seen. I did find a vid with someone showing a clamp in aluminum brace for the same area, guess the prior owner just went the permanent route. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
I've seen a couple people weld that brace in. The later tuber frames had a bar welded in there, so it's definitely cheaper and easier than tracking down one of the Banke frame braces, not to mention looks better. There's another company that makes a different brace that goes there that looks a lot nice than the banke brace, but they're also harder to find, and I can't remember who made them. If the frame issue is on the straight part of the frame I would definitely consider just cutting out the damaged part and welding in a replacement piece, but that depends how far you're looking to go into it. Nice of you to help fix up a bike that your friend owns, and nice of him to let you race it! Sounds like a great project for you guys. edit: this post shows both styles of frame braces for the S1. The top style was originally made by Banke, but I think someone on the forum made a batch using the same design. I want to saw the company that made the tube style brace started with a W? but I can't remember. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/47623/641289.html?1308514163 (Message edited by upthemaiden on October 17, 2023) | ||
| Predius |
I've started cleaning the tank... it still had the original, 20yr old gas in it. About 1/3rd full, plus orange jello. I've used a couple flushes of VP T4 leftover from my MotoAmerica event to try and loosen and flush that gunk out, going to hit it with acetone next. Petcock is trashed, looks like there is an Acerbis unit that's a drop in replacement? While I'm cleaning things and inventorying parts, I'm daydreaming about build options and have a question: Looking at 08 part numbers, the XB12 and XB9 crank assemblies list the same rod kit. AFAIK the 12 and 9 used the same pin height for their pistons as people used XB9 pistons in 12s for a compression bump... if the rods are the same too, did the 9 use shorter cylinders? (And pushrods, pushrod covers, etc) The cases are already bored for larger cylinders, part of me thinks an 08 XB9 crank mated to a 90ci bore kit for a short stroke 1200cc machine would make for a fun race motor, but if I need shorter cylinders to pull that off I may not be able to find parts? I'm also starting to look for a donor S1 / S1W bike for a frame and engine bits, should be the quickest way to get this machine back on the track. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
There is an Acerbis part that fits on the S1 tank. Only catch is that most dirtbikes shoot the fuel line toward the rear of the bike, and the S1 runs it towards the front of the bike. So even though you're putting the petcock on the left side of the bike, you need to buy one made for the right side, because you'll be mounting it in reverse of how it's meant to go. Just compare yours to the picture when you buy one. Sounds like a fun engine project. I can't say exactly which parts are the same and different. I haven't ever thought much about it, but yes I believe the cylinders are bored the same, and people swap pistons for the compression change. If the rods are exactly the same, then the crankshaft must be the part that's different. Technically the two bikes could still use the same cylinders, the xb9 piston just wouldn't need to drop down as far into the cylinder as the 12 does, and considering they all share the same push rods and covers and all of that, if I had to guess I'd say they probably use the same cylinders. That is just a guess though... | ||
| Predius |
Did some more digging, I was reading the parts catalog wrong. The PNs I thought were for the rods with the flywheels were for a bearing race and flywheel key. So they DO use different rods, erythang else is the same meaning a 90ci barrel and piston set will drop onto an XB9 crank happily, just with a bit less compression than noted at the brochure. | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
For crankshafts and measurements you could contact Phelan, http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/boar d-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=phelan-u sers | ||
| Predius |
While I wait for a petcock and hylomar to arrive so I can finish the tank I've been looking at the dual front caliper setup and it's driving me nuts. Both fork lowers have caliper mounts, there were clearly left and right calipers made... but why oh why did they set it up so you need a giant adapter bracket on one side?! The desire to remachine the lower and caliper if there is enough meat to safely do so and eliminate that bracket is really strong. Though, first it all needs to be torn down and cleaned as there is some serious corrosion all over the forks and brakes. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
From what I remember, they did make a left side caliper that was shaped correctly to bolt right on to the fork leg, but you had to buy it separately and there weren't many of them around. I'd say chances of finding one are practically zero. At some point the same forks were used on some KTMs, so there is a chance you might be able to find a set of front brake calipers off of a KTM and put those on your bike. I feel like to accomplish that, you'd have to take some detailed measurements of your fork and caliper mounts, browse a bunch of KTM info to figure out which bikes used those forks, and then post on a KTM forum in hopes that someone with that bike can get you measurements to confirm that they are in fact the same before you spend your money trying to buy a set. After all of that, it may just be cheaper to but a front brake setup from a GSXR and have someone machine you 2 adapter plates to fit them on your bike. Better yet, maybe you can just find someone selling a whole front end... forks, bars, brakes, wheel, fender, triples, etc, and have the stems swapped. I've seen sportbike front ends sell for $100-150 on marketplace. | ||
| Predius |
Interesting, I didn't think KTM used those forks on anything but your suggestion got me looking and sure enough the 1994 Duke 620 is clearly sporting a similar axle lug design with a Brembo four pot on the left. Looks like they used that front end from 1994 to 1998. Unfortunately that Brembo is using their standard 40mm mount pattern, vs approximately 3.5in on the Buell. I need to get a good measurement, suspect it's 90mm, which would line up with those Nissins on late 90's Kawi's and Suzuki's. Twin Motorcycles has a kit to go to a pair of that generation Brembos on 340mm rotors, nicely symmetrical, they've also got a pair of billet 6 pots that can mount up symmetrically with no adapter brackets. I got a better look at the Nissins, the difference is in the calipers themselves, the left outer casting has the mounts offset out way more than the right side does, hence the big adapter bracket. Looks like Buell got custom ones for the right instead of using the same 26mm offset Suzuki/Kawi use, hence the odd looking resulting dual brake setup. | ||
| Predius |
I now have an X1 motor on hand as a donor and am slowly going through it. Motor has sat without oil for a bit, pushrods have been pulled, how long can it sit like that before I should be pulling the lifters (and the heads, pushrod tubes, etc to get to them) to soak them in oil before turning the motor again? Also, is the full overhaul gasket kit, PN 17026-91D still readily available or should I be hitting up Athena/Cometic/Vesrah at this point? |
