| Author | Message | ||
     Lakepipe |
Hi i'm new here. a friend just bought a S1 1996, looks stock still has stock airbox. just wondering if they just use a stock 1200 sporster motor? Also i am going to look at a 2002 M2 and wondering what the difference is? like do they use stock sporster flywheels? and does the 02 M2 have thunderstorm heads? what is difference between sporster heads and the thunderstom heads? thanks Lakes | ||
| Buelliedan  |
The S1 has lightning heads and cams which are a bit more HP than stock Sportster. Makes about 90hp. The 02 M2 has thunderstorm heads which pack a bunch more HP and compression than stock Sportster heads but the M2 still uses Sportser type cams giving it good low end grunt. The M2 makes 90hp as well. (Message edited by buelliedan on December 16, 2004) | ||
| Anonymous |
stock S1's made about 75HP | ||
| Aaron |
Lightning heads as used on 96-98 S1's have a little smaller chamber than a regular Sportster 1200 head ... 62cc or so instead of 67cc. This gives them 10:1 compression with flat tops, which is what they came with. The Lightning heads also have a 10 degree squish band (versus a hemi chamber in the XL1200 head), although it's ineffective with the flat tops. Ports and valves are identical to the XL1200 head (1.715" intake, 1.480" exhaust). The extra material they put into the chamber to form the squish band and reduce the chamber volume tends to shroud the valves, though, it's particularly bad when you make the valves bigger. When we prepare a set and give'em the big valve treatment, we have to unshroud the hell out of the valves and we generally end up back at 67cc. From there we either have to mill them down to get back to 62cc, or we usually just cut the squish bands to 15 degrees and put'em into a Thunderstorm type piston. So basically we make'em into Thunderstorms. The Thunderstorm head came out in 1998 on the S1W and the S3/S3T. In 1999 all the models got it, and that continued for all the tubers through 2002. It's a much improved head. Ports are better, and the valves are quite a bit bigger at 1.810" intake & 1.575" exhaust. The chambers are 67cc with a 15 degree squish band, and they paired the heads with a set of 15 degree domed pistons that give 10:1. Doing it this way, with a bigger chamber and a domed piston, allowed them to put the big valves in without shrouding them so bad. It's a big improvement. Then they came out with the XB head, which is better yet. Same valve sizes as Thunderstorm heads, but using 7mm stems and beehive springs for less weight. More travel is afforded as well, .550 of lift is no problem. Ports are better than even the Thunderstorms. Chambers are a 62cc bathtub with flat squish bands, so now you get 10:1 with flat tops and an effective squish band at the same time. Plus there's lots of material to angle the squish bands if you want (the Thunderstorm squish bands are rough castings and very small, you have to mill the head .035 or more to even get a clean shot at recutting them and even then you can't get a lot of surface area). Both the 1996 S1 and the 2002 M2 were rated at 91hp, and tend to come in mid-70's at the rear wheel. The S1 gets there with bigger cams and the lesser Lightning heads, the '02 M2 soes it with smaller cams and the better Thunderstorm heads, and has a broader powerband as a result. Pair the S1's cams with the '02 M2's Thunderstorm heads and you get a 101hp motor (mid 80's rear wheel) as came on S1W's and S3's from 98 on. FYI, they also combined the smaller cams with the lesser heads, in 97-98 M2's, and they were rated at 83hp (upper 60's at the rear wheel). | ||
| Jmartz  |
Aaron: I need need a set of those XB heads, axtel jugs (with the xtra 48 cc) and the new motor mount. Want to loose some bottom end weight as well. Wish I could make up my mind which way to go, the old tired motor or a fresh S&S 4" bore case. | ||
| Aaron |
Jose ... as you know, I have the S&S 4x4 ... and it's a monster. But it's damn expensive. The cases alone are over 2 grand. Now add in the flywheel assembly, the cylinders, and the heads, all of which are specific to these cases, and then all the other stuff (valvetrain, transmission, primary, etc), and you can go into 5 figures in a heartbeat. Mine made 115 hp when I first got it, that was with mostly the stock S&S stuff, although it had Andrews cams. Before I even had a chance to mess with it, it had a catastrophic failure; one of those perforated valve spring retainers broke and it took out both heads, both cylinders, and 1 rod. Not a good day. But a good excuse to rebuild it better than it was. It's been through lots of iterations since then, spun the dyno at well over 160hp on the motor and well over 200hp on the juice, and had a few more less-catastrophic failures, but that's to be expected, I'm pushing things. Anyway, if you've got the money, that's the way to go. You can make your S1 scary fast. Someday I'm going to put my 100" back on the street. XB heads and the Axtell jugs on your cases are a much more sane alternative and you can make a lot of power that way, too. Let me know if I can help. | ||
| Lakepipe |
Aaron, thanks for the indepth repley. just what i was wanted to know. the bike i am going to look at 02, M2, has the 2 1/2" collector race headers, and 7,000 rev module, two final belt ratio's, one is the american ratio ( low geared ) one is the euro ratio ( high geared ) and the guy got two speedo's to match the rear ratio's. i think i'll go with the low ratio. he also said he got mild cams, but when asked he does not know cam spec's but it is an SE set, he said he has the box, so i'll look at part #. he has the carbon air kit on it and a Thunderslide kit. ( i have never used this kit B4 ). What do you think? thanks Lakes | ||
| Aaron |
Lakes ... I really like M2's, so I'm not exactly impartial here. They're just terrific all around bikes, some say they're the best motorcycle ever made  ... and I'm not arguing the point! The S1 is also one of my favorites. Raw, naked, and brutal. Hell, I have 2 of them, I must like'em. But infinitely less practical than the M2. Go 100 miles on one without stopping and you'll understand what I'm talking about. The mildest SE cam set is the Lightning grind. The part number on the box will be 25648-01. Sounds like the cams have likely been upgraded to the Lightning cams, making this into the equivalent of the 101hp S1W motor. Hmm, Euro M2's cam with those cams already, apparently Aussie M2's got the mild cams so this bike had to be upgraded? Yes, the US gearing (27/61) is far preferred to the International gearing (29/55). I even run a 26T on the front to go deeper yet. The race header is a good all-around pipe. I'm not a huge fan of the Thunderslide kit, though, but it's no big deal. Slap an HSR42 on there and be done with it, it beats any CV IMO. Sounds like a sweet bike. By '02, they had the bugs largely out and the bikes are pretty good, reliability wise. | ||
| Lakepipe |
Thank's Aaron, my friend that got the S1 last weekend. used to own a 00 M2 had white e muffler with the race header. it went great. he had to sell it but always missed it. we both drag race street class. and wanted to get Buells to race and ride. i saw the S1 and we went looked was like it was still on show room floor. he thinks the M2 he had was quicker, but the S1 front end feels better? i could get his forks to walk if i got hold of the wheel at full lock, i notice the M2 use a fork brace. what front end do you like? Lakes | ||
| Court |
>>>they're one of the best motorcycle ever made That's an accurate statement.  | ||
| Jmartz |
Aaron: I read somewhere that the motor/trans unit used on tube framers was 220 lbs. Can you make a guess as to the weight of a 4" bore S&S case with a belt drive and a baker 6 speed? | ||
| Smoke |
jose, happy holidays. your old heads and cylinders are still running around on my 97. i'm seriously contemplating the xb head/axtell cylinders also. stage 2 with about .536 or.550 cams. had a friends duc st4 walk away on the top the other day, didn't like it. ride safe, tim |
