| Author | Message | ||
     Matrim |
My grenade plate finally went; or so I’m assuming. Before get into the primary, does anyone have a list of all the parts I’ll need and other things I should take care of while I’m in there? I replaced the tensioner with the more robust one long ago. Can I reuse the primary gasket, or is that one and done? Should I go for oem or cometic I’ll have to see how the clutch looks (never done clutch work). But I’m planning to just replace the spring plate with two friction and a metal? If the others look worn does anyone know of some good clutch packs? I was looking at Barnett and Energy One. I liked the stock clutch well enough, so I’m not really looking for an upgrade, just want to get back on the road. (Message edited by Matrim on February 17, 2020) | ||
| Upthemaiden |
The actual spring plate is replaced with 3 plates. I don't remember if it was 2 friction and 1 metal, or 2 metal and 1 friction. The downside is if yours went, it might've caused some additional damage, and you'll have to pull off the cover to see if anything else was affected. The primary gaskets are supposed to be 1 use, but I can't say I've never reused engine gaskets before. If it's paper, you'll need a new one. If it's a better gasket, there's a chance you can reuse it. Again you won't know till you pull the cover off. As far as other stuff to look into while you're in there.... The oil seal behind the stator is always recommended if you still have the old one, make sure your starter gasket is good, there's the updated shift detent plate along with new springs. Also recommended to put a little sealant on the stator wire where it exits through the engine. The farther you go, the more special tools you need. There's a special took that makes sure the oil seal is seated to the right depth, you'll need a tool(easily made with stuff at home depot) to get to the clutch plates. It's been a little while since I've been in there, so someone else can mention if I've forgotten anything. If you decide to pull the whole clutch assembly to replace the detent plate, and/or inspect your transmission, you'll need a way to lock up the transmission. They make a tool, but I'm pretty sure I just stuck a metal bar through my rear wheel to keep it from spinning. | ||
| Matrim |
Thanks for the in depth reply. Guess I might as well replace the gasket. Stator and starter seals too, got it. Well this is going to be a pain. Here’s to hoping you dont see pictures of my torn up primary in the coming weeks... | ||
| Upthemaiden |
None of it was a pain, but removing the primary definitely has a lot of potential for project creep. Someone on the forum was nice enough to loan me their crank seal installation tool. People have done it without it, but it's nice to know you did it right the first time. I pulled mine off for the same stuff you did... clutch plate and primary chain tensioner. My bike had always shifted a little rough so I wanted to do the detent plate while I was in there, especially considering it's such a cheap upgrade. Once you have your clutch pulled though, it's only 5 bolts to pull out the whole transmission, so I figured that was worth inspecting. It's only 2 bolts to remove your starter, and the oil seal and stator wire plug are both right there. Everything takes me forever because I'd got a couple little ones at home so my time in the garage is rare and projects are done in tiny steps, but if you have a little more control over your time in the garage, there's no reason it needs to be a long project. If you decide to skip the shift detent plate, it is possible to remove the starter without having to pull the whole clutch. If I remember right you just have to put the clutch in the right spot so you can get the hex wrench between the teeth to loosen the bolts. Make sure you get the good starter gaskets with metal in them. The ones I ordered were just crappy paper, so I knew it was just a temporary fix, but I was short on time so I didn't order new ones. The tool you need to open the clutch can be made with a 3" or 4" PVC fitting, don't remember which, and a chunk of 1/4" steel bar, all stuff you can grab at home depot for a couple dollars. There's plenty of instructions on here for making what you need if you look for it. | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
I am late in commenting here but, in case you have not gotten to the job yet, I have a couple of clutch suggestions. After deleting the riveted spring plate and fitting an aftermarket clutch kit, some have found that the clutch engages abruptly and "grunts" upon engagement. To avoid all of that, you can install the later XB clutch anti-judder spring and spring seat, the adjoining narrow friction plate, plus a standard steel plate to replace the damaged riveted plate. By doing so, you get the added friction surface of an extra, albeit narrower, clutch plate plus a more refined engagement. Also, the latest XT diaphragm spring offers a little bit softer clutch pull. (Message edited by Mikes bikes on March 05, 2020) | ||
| Matrim |
Thanks. Been working on it slowly but surely. I don’t have a garage and have been away on the weekends so it’s been kinda a chore. Emptied the primary and pulled the cover. Nothing looks immediately damaged. Yesterday I got to the store to get a 4” pvc and a metal bar. I hope I can take a look at the actual clutch this weekend. The anti judder spring, spring seat, narrow friction plate, and steel plate all replace the riveted plate? Any chance you have part numbers for these? Thanks for the info | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
The riveted spring plate can be replaced with two standard steel plates (one on each side of the added friction plate), and either an extra standard friction plate or the later (XB, XT, XR1200) narrow friction plate. The anti-judder spring and seat sit within the ID of the narrower friction plate. I do have part numbers: Anti-judder spring 37894-02; Anti-judder spring seat 37895-02; Narrow friction plate 37897-02; standard steel plate 37913-90; XT diaphragm spring 37934-06. If the old friction and steel plates are not damaged or worn they can be reused, in which case the upgrade costs about the same as an aftermarket clutch pack.  (Message edited by Mikes bikes on March 05, 2020) | ||
| Upthemaiden |
Are these parts that fit in with the steel/friction plates similar to how the grenade plate did? I'm having a hard time picturing it in my head. I feel like the first time or 2 I let the clutch out I might've noticed a difference, but after that it just feels completely normal. Could be worth it if you had to spend the money on a new clutch pack anyway. I was lucky enough to find someone on the forum with old clutch plates laying around and they sent me the 3 I needed for a couple dollars. | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
The new anti-judder spring does the same job as the riveted spring plate but without the disintegration drama. The spring is a concave washer that has the same ID as the original friction plate, and slides on to the inner hub. The narrower friction plate has a larger ID to accommodate the new anti-judder spring (thus narrowing the friction surface). The anti-judder spring contacts the steel plates on either side of the narrow friction plate, and then compresses under the engagement force of the diaphragm clutch spring. This anti-judder spring design is used by other motorcycle manufacturers; IIRC, some Ducati and Suzuki models use it. The aftermarket clutch packs without a spring plate seem to be luck of the draw, some folks have no trouble at all and some have very noticeable grabbiness and noisy engagement. That sort of variability would not have been acceptable to new bike customers and is, no doubt, why Harley included the riveted spring plate in the original clutch pack. (Message edited by Mikes bikes on March 07, 2020) | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
One picture is worth...something. Number 21 is the anti-judder spring, number 22 is the spring seat and number 20 is the narrow friction plate. Assembly instructions can be found in the XT service manual, section 6 page 14. http://www.buellmods.com/content/downloads/manuals/xbxulysses/2007_ulysses_manual.pdf  (Message edited by Mikes bikes on March 07, 2020) | ||
| Matrim |
So, got the clutch pack out today and there doesn’t seem to be any damage. Even the spring plate looks good as new. Figure I’ll change it anyways, but now I don’t know what’s wrong. It had all the symptoms of the blown grenade plate. IIRC it would pull on idle in neutral. Would catch and clunk to a stop when shifting into first from neutral. Sometimes it would fully disengage the clutch, sometimes it would keep pulling. Couldn’t adjust the clutch enough to make it rideable. I thought this was for sure the problem, now I’m lost. Appreciate any help. | ||
| Matrim |
Also, thanks for all the part numbers and explanations! | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
Check for a crack in the primary cover where the clutch release pushes against the lip in the cover. If it is cracked, it can be welded. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
I've never ridden a bike that had a bad grenade plate, but as the name implies, I think they make a big mess of your engine when they go, so it definitely sounds like you've got a problem to sort out, but I think when those plates go, you would've known immediately something was big time wrong. It definitely sounds like some kind of spring issue, or maybe your clutch plates just need replaced. | ||
| Akbuell |
I would start at the clutch lever and work inward. And don't just look at the lever, remove it from the perch and confirm the pivot hole is round, the bolt is not worn, ect. Then pull the cable in and out and look for broken strands. Same thing at the adjustment assy in the middle and at the primary cover. Continue on until getting to the clutch hub. Confirm the nut holding the hub to the transmission shaft is tight and properly torqued. Agree that the clutch is not releasing properly, and the grenade plate is probably out as the reason. Means looking, carefully, at the rest of the release system. Hope this helps, Dave | ||
| H0gwash |
I had a recent problem whose symptom was it seemed the clutch needed adjusting every day, the slack would seem to vanish and the clutch would get grabby and difficult to engage. It got clunky to engage, because it sorta was engaged already and I was asking it to engage with something esle! It turned out the throwout bearing was going out. The balls in the bearings were getting ground up more and more every time I pulled the clutch and that's where my slack was vanishing. I'm pretty sure that is item 15 in the picture Mikes_bikes posted. The bearing is part number 8885. IIRC the stock part is obsolete, but smart mechanical people know how to find the equivalent which is cheaper. I bought NOS on ebay. IIRC while you have to take the primary cover off AGAIN you only have to use the circlip pliers to remove the assembly holding the throwout bearing. I did this repair on the top floor of a ridiculously clean and over-regulated parking garage of an upscale apartment where I am temporarily living while my partner's house is rebuilt from a fire. I used stealth and a mortar bucket to catch oil drips, and all my salvaged tools were in the back of my car parked next to the bike. I was so relieved when it was done. | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
Read this: https://www.becausemotorcycle.com/buell-xb-tech-cl utch-dragging/ | ||
| Matrim |
Cool, I’ll check out all that stuff. I just replaced the cable so it’s in tip top shape. I didn’t notice anything when I inspected the bearing, maybe I need to look closer. I have race levers installed and I’ve read that those can cause problems. I’ve put a few thousand miles on them tho with no problems <shrug> The bike only has 15k on it. Think the clutch plates could be worn already? I don’t really know what I’m looking for, but they look to be in good condition. Thanks for that link, that clears things up. I’ll look for that when I get home. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
They should be fine at 15k miles under normal wear, but you never know what a previous owner could've been doing. Make sure you put some grease on the upper ferrule of the clutch cable, they're known to wear pretty quick if they're rubbing every time you pull the lever in. The aftermarket options typically aren't as durable as the OEM cables too, so it's still worth looking at just to be sure. I put one of the motion pro cables on mine about 2 years ago, and despite other peoples complains, it's been working well for me. There's also another set of bearings in there, #6 in the photo above. It's worth making sure that assembly(#4-8) is working properly. | ||
| Akbuell |
Looked at my '01 X-1 service manual. Interesting instructions re the clutch plates. Wipe the lubricant from the fiber plates and stack them together. Minimum thickness for the stack should be 0.661in. The steel plates should be checked for grooves and for flatness, or being warped. The only other specification I could find is a new component specification of 0.0629in + 0.0020in, with a wear limit of 0.006in. Also, if the thickness of the fiber plate stack is less than minimum, replace both fiber and steel plates as a unit. Hope this helps, Dave | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
Matrim, one of your comments above, "IIRC it would pull on idle in neutral", does complicate things. It sounds like the bike was creeping forward even though the transmission was in neutral. Is that right? If so, it suggests something wrong inside the gearbox like a tight bushing or a bent shift fork and you will need to take the gear set out for a look-see. Once the clutch and primary drive are removed, there is not much extra work to take the entire transmission out ... probably one of the nicest features of the earlier engines. | ||
| Matrim |
Ugh. Finally stopped raining so I had some time to check on the bike. Bearings look good and I don’t see any cracks in the primary case cover. I guess that means mikes_bikes is right and something is wrong in the gearbox? Never done any sort of work like that, is this something I could fumble through my own? Any guidance would be appreciated. | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
It is not difficult to remove the transmission. Do you have the service manual? If not, job 1 is to get the manual, they are usually available on Ebay for about $30, or less if you are lucky. You will need a decent set of fractional (American) sockets, a torque wrench (200 ft-lbs for the crankshaft nut and 75 ft-lbs for the mainshaft nut) and a primary drive locking tool (easily improvised). If you don't have a large enough torque wrench for the crank nut, you can estimate the tightening torque using your body weight on a calculated length breaker bar. Having said all of that, here is something you should check first: The shift detent plate often comes ajar from the shift drum and might cause the symptoms you described. That is easier to fix and only requires a new clip to refasten it. It is behind the clutch basket and you will still need to remove the primary drive to reach it. | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
Here is an image of the detent plate, behind the clutch. The clip gets distorted and allows the plate to push off of the shift drum.  | ||
| Matrim |
Thanks for all that info. I do remember reading about people having problems with that clip (and installing two when replacing them?) I think I have all the necessary tools and manual, just need to fashion the locking tool. I think it’s gonna start raining again tho... ugh. | ||
| Mikes_bikes |
Sounds like you are in good shape to press on with the repair. I don't think you can get two clips to fit correctly on the shift drum, though. It is probably better to fit just one new one. Be happy you are getting rain and not snow, like here in Maine. | ||
| Drawkward |
If you have the time, and you're going to rebuild the trans, I would highly recommend getting a bunch of 0.07" shims that come stock with the trans and have them surface ground to a few at 0.03" and some at 0.04". When you rebuild the transmission use them to properly shim the gears. I have some 0.03" and 0.04" shims somewhere around here from when I did mine. It made an incredible difference in shifting. From what I understand, these trannys were put together with only 0.07" shims whereas previous Harley trannys were individually shimmed appropriately to take out play. This resulted in somewhat sloppy transmission that would wear faster. YMMV but I know after I did the work the transmission was fantastic. Good luck finding your problem and fixing it! Have confidence and you'll get it sorted. | ||
| Hawgford |
No need to grind,any quality build shop like Zippers or Andrews will have the shims. the object here is NOT to have a "tight" trans,its supposed to have play and .007 might be spot on for a 100% new trans.Its WHERE the play needs to be,rather than how much.Most of the time,gettin your trans pro-built is money well spent | ||
| Matrim |
Well I finally got around to getting the clutch basket off to check out the decent plate. To me it looks fine? If that’s fine I suppose it’s time to break into the transmission?   | ||
| Upthemaiden |
It does indeed look fine. Time to pull the transmission and see what you can find. |
