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Buell Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through October 11, 2019 » S1W blowing oil and vibes, need some opinions « Previous Next »

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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, a little back story. I bought this s1w from tanner Stacey, he said it had been out under a tarp in Alabama because “it lost a gear or something”. Locked up. Non-runner.

I tried breaking it loose by rolling it in high gear (a gear was missing). No dice. Pulled the carb and intake and the valves were rusted shut. Pulled the rocker boxes and used a dead blow to break them loose then brushed what I could with wd40 and marvel. Found the primary tensioner broken and it took out the transmission. Replaced the transmission with a a good used unit with zippers trap door. New forcewinder intake, Got it running and drove it on a short ride, all good.

After about 20 miles, it began vibrating quite bad under load. I parked and the front rocker box is covered with oil, the motor mount covered in oil, and carb is covered in oil spray. Rear rocker box has oil spray on it. Under the tank too. It’s not smoking out of the exhaust. Revs up and runs fine in neutral. Just under load it’s vibrating good and power seems down, with a lot of popping noise (kooks exhaust, so may be normal there). No grinding noises, no ticking, no unusual noises. Wondering if it’s a rod bearing? Anything I should look for? Pictures for fun:




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Natexlh1000
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Check your front motor mount.
The splatter of oil is disturbing. I hope your case is OK.
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Hootowl
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rocker box gasket? Water in oil got hot and spewed from the oil tank? Re vibrations, check front mount and isolator.
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

New style front iso. New style all around. Bolts look good. New crankseal, not coming from oil breather. I’m going to tear it down. I’m thinking also possibly bent pushrod or bad valves. Wondering if anyone had symptoms like this before. Was fingers crossed it would just run lol. Guess I shoulda tore it down to begin with.
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K12pilot
Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

IDK about the ill running part bit I had a similar issue with the S3T I built.

It pissed oil all over (((

Ended up was a miss aligned chimney gasket when I did the XB rocker covers

Nice job BTW!!!!
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Chimney gasket = hollow square in middle?
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 03:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, I’ll check that, it looks like it may be coming from the center of the rocker cover. I’ll post here when I get it torn down what I find. I’ve got a new ural coming and three other Buells, so I’m not in a hurry. I’ll piddle with it as time allows.

(Message edited by Williamscottrobertson on September 19, 2019)
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89rs1200
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When the crank bearings failed, the valve rocker hit the rockerbox cover and dimpled it on the inside. This put a crack in the cover which was virtually invisible and leaked terribly. I found it because of the dimple on the inside which, under magnification, could see the crack spreading from that dimple.
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks 89rs. Exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I’ll look for that when I take it down.
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Hawgford
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've heard and seen the results of many HD engines of all type do this and its was the crank bearings gone..plus then the rod...Why? because they were LUGGED.. with no strain on the motor from the trans in neutral they were not fine but would run still spittin..DONT LUG YOUR SCOOTER!!
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tore into the front cylinder this afternoon. All looked good and sealed up top, two of the cover bolts weren’t torqued down anymore and the chimney gasket didn’t look square in one spot. I’m guessing that was causing the oil spewing.

The head looked normal to me. The top of the piston and cyl walls looked ok too. The piston has no play up and down but moves side to side. Is this normal to have any lateral play? Maybe at the wristpin or is that all supposed to be fairly tight? I’ll pull the other head and jug and pop off the pistons and Feel the rods that way and see if they feel the same.

Is there anyone good to send the heads to to have them cleaned up and onced over? May just do it myself. I have valve seals and my aircraft mechanic has the tools to test the springs and lap the valves, ect.
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Hawgford
Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

shouldn't be any play piston bore really other than thousandths of in. between the rings and lands... lots of good head shops headquarters... hammer performance zippers nrhs... all do sporty heads constantly
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok, maybe this is where the vibration is coming from. I’ll see what the other cylinder feels like comparatively.
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Hawgford
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

try a feeler gauge down the side. then in front or back. then you know its one of 2 things a wasted bearing bearing below or a shit bore job/egg cyl or both
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89rs1200
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2019 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Piston will move a little, very little, side to side as it slides on the wrist pin. Of course, this is with the cylinder off.
Expect the connecting rod will wiggle a little left and right on the crank. The forked connecting rod will wiggle noticeably less than the connecting rod which connects in the middle. How much wiggle is OK? That is for a Harley engine mechanic to decide. I do know that for my rebuilt S3 engine there was some wiggle. I expected them to be very tight, but they were not.
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I got the rear cyl and pistons off. The rod bearings feel ok. There’s maybe a mm of side to side play and it’s the same in both rods. The rear cyl wall looked pitted and the rear piston had more wear on the skirt than the front. The crank felt kind of notchy spinning around but maybe that’s the magnets on the generator? Maybe it’s main crank bearings? I don’t know how to tell. Are those pressed into the case or are they on the crank?

I’m thinking of going to a 1250 hammer kit but I want to be sure the crank is good. Here’s a video:

https://youtu.be/6K_zlNwpEY4

(Message edited by Williamscottrobertson on September 24, 2019)
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89rs1200
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

* That crank and connecting rod play looks just as good as my last two, which were good.
* Those cylinders and pistons are toast! No wonder it ran poorly.
* Check your oil! Are there sparkly bits of metal in the oil. I see oil in the bottom of the cases. Check that oil. If there are bearing chunks or metal flakes, sorry, but that crank needs to be torn down and main connecting rod bearings checked.
* On 1998, some 1999, and earlier cranks, the crank pin was bolted to the flywheels. Later cranks used a "friction weld?" to hold the crank pin to the flywheels.
* In either case, special tools, press parts, and balancing jig are required to get the crank back together.
* Timken bearings are press fit onto the crank and the Left side case. Timken bearings are basically two tapered bearings with the smaller diameter facing each other. There is a spacer placed between them to get the tolerance correct. The Timken bearing keeps the crank from moving Left-to-Right. The Right crank end and Right side case uses plain bearings.

* This will be a good time to check your oil pump drive gears and replace with a bronze one, of not already there.
* Recommend tearing apart the oil pump to look for scoring and metal which made its way from the bottom of the motor.

* Cost? Expect to easily pay $5,000.00 for a shop to do it:
** I refreshed my 1998 S3 top end with new pistons and cylinders, which are still available, for $700.00 in parts and gaskets. I did all the work and left the crank in place.
** I rebuilt my 1997 S3, which had destroyed connecting rod bearings, with new Buell cylinders, pistons, crank pin, connecting rods, bearings, and oil pump, for $2,700.00 in parts and machine work. I did all the work except for: head repair, rebuilding the crank with new crank pin and bearings, and pressing the crank back into the Left case.
** Yes, a new oil pump will be needed if the bearings are destroyed or damaged.
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89rs1200
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oh! Additionally, I expect your valves are not making a good seal when closing due to rust and pitting on the mating surfaces.
As you said, it sat for a very long time. Only in Nevada can we get away with letting our motors sit, as humidity is so low here.
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the info. I don’t see any metal in the oil on the crank using a flashlight. However you know these are dry sump motors and I don’t know of any way to get the oil that has collected back into the crankcase, I wish there was a plug on the bottom of the case to drain it. Only hope is to run it and drain the bag immediately and see if there’s any metal collected. I should have put one of those magnets on the oil filter just in case.

I’ll rework the heads, go with a hammer kit most likely, I think the 1250 kit is $495 right now. Killer deal for pistons and cyls ready to go. Just didn’t want to demolish them. Maybe I was getting blow by and pressurizing the crankcase a bit. It wasn’t smoking but the pistons and chambers are kind of coked so maybe oil was getting by.
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Hawgford
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 08:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree with 89rs...You got it down,dont cheese out and just do the top end,it'll just pound whats left of the bottom end,accident waitin to happen.Been there,done that.As for a shop doin your bottom end or whole motor, theres a guy with a YT channel that does salt flat LSR with a buell blast and a single cyl ironhead out of San Diego,named Keenan Tatro.... let him have it.He's also probably top five easy best stroker builders anywhere.His fave is 56in 45s,rocker clutch and all in a stock WLA he bracket races. Stays covered up and does it all pretty much by himself. I'm long time fan and the same type of wrench/machinist.Hope to visit his place.GREAT vids on all sorts of models.His machinery is all top of the line old school stuff.
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I know I “should” get the crank checked out. But, that’s a ton more work that I’ve never done. I’ve never pulled an hd motor nor split the case, I’m not sure how to even get those pressed bearings out of the case. I’ve found I usually end up breaking something the first go round and it becomes infinitely more expensive fast lol. I’m probably best to leave a what I call a low mileage (15k) crank that feels good on a motor that’s not making metal.

I’ve rebuilt multiple two strokes that cracked and holes pistons and blow metal down in the crank. Just send the crank out as an assy or buy one from hotrods, new pistons, leak down test and done. Crankworks wont even touch an HD crank, I saw hammer charges under $200 labor to go thru one.

Idk, I’m at a crossroads I’ve been at a few times before and this time my gut is telling me if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
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Hawgford
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

10-4,Tatro doin the bottom end would take your worries out or east coast i would go with zippers they have put out some really strong sportsters.. If theres any issues downstairs that hammer 1250 will pound on em and let you know...lol wish you would have kept the stock white body... luck to ya..
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Williamscottrobertson
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks, I do appreciate all your input. I’ll sleep on it.
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89rs1200
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Morning Williamscottrobertson,
Yes, check the oil in the oil tank.
Yes it is a dry sump, but there is always a little oil in the crank case. could just turn it over and check the oil which comes out.
Also note, if there is metal in the oil, tearing the oil pump apart will show damage in it because of the metal. Remember the top half of that pump scavenges oil directly from the crank case.
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