| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
I've been thinking about scratch building a tube frame Buell. The first thing I would like to decide on is the frame... Could anyone post the specs for each frame? I'm interested in rake and trail for each model first, and then wheel base. Also, are the swingarms generally interchangeable or not? I wouldn't mind knowing the swingarm lengths as well, but because they are adjustable, that's not a huge issue. So far I'm thinking an S2/S3 frame and bodywork, but maybe an S1 with S2/3 bodywork. I'm going for the best handeling combination of frame and tripple trees with the S2/3 body. I still have a lot to learn about the tube frames and I've got a chopper and a 351C to build first so no hurry  . | ||
| Firemanjim |
Swingarms are generally interchangeable and you can even retro the newer aluminum ones back to the early S-1/3's.S-2 and S-3 bodywork is alot different.S-2's have a gas tank cover and a black plastic fuel tank,S-3's are one piece tank.The tail sections are shaped differently on the fronts,and the fairings are mounted off different types of brackets.No interchange on these parts from S-2 to S-3.S-2 had the aluminum oil tank,S-3 was plastic.I can tell you that an S-1 gas tank fits an S-2 frame just fine as that is what is on the Bonneville bike.The S-1 frame does not have the mounting points for the S-2 front fairing if I remember right-- | ||
| Mikej |
See if Jerry/Ferris still has that S2 frame for sale. Start there. Work out the rest of the details later. If I had money that's what I'd do. | ||
| Road_thing |
Biggest difference I know of is that the S2's have the removable sideplates that make isolater changes much easier. As far as I know, none of the other models have that feature. I don't know if the frame geometry is different or if it's in the triple trees or just different weight distribution, but my S2 feels more stable in a straight line than my S1. Without actually measuring anything, I'd say that the S2 feels like it has a bit more rake in the steering head than the S1. rt | ||
| Bomber |
X1s have a removable frame member as well -- not plate like the S2, but the same from an operational standpoint -- 30 minute belt changes (including the obligatory stop for beer and tool you put down just a moment ago)!! | ||
| Road_thing |
Izzatso? X1's have'em, too? If it was me doing it, then, I'd start with a nickel-plated X1 frame, an early 4 gal tank (if it would work with the X1 seat & tail section), a carbed motor, a set of USD forks and PM wheels. Add brakes, wiring and plumbing, polish the tail section, paint and powder-coat to your taste and hit the road! Damn good thing my garage is already full, I could see this degenerating into an ebay orgy around casa chingadero! Let's see, if I sell the S2, the Commando and the Bonneville I can free up one bay in the garage... rt | ||
| Tramp |
even though the S2 & 3 fuel tanks are of unlike cosmetic configuration, they interchange perfectly. The S2 has, essentially, a block polyethylene fuel cell beneath the tank cover (I run my S2 without the cover, w/only the cell - see 'profile' pic) which is strikingly similar to the painted S3 fuel ce....er "tank" I know of two guys currently selling s3 frames, should you be interested. between the S3 & 2, most things mount up fine, although, as abovementioned, the tailsections are slightly different. incidentally, most M2 components interchange with both models as well- hold an m2 and s3 frame side by side and they are suspiciously similar outside of the long tailmemeber of the S3. belts are the same as well, so that tells you something about swingarm/frame/engine interface. my buell is an S2T with S3 forks/trees/bars/controls and an S1 seat mounted directly to the frame- this S1 seat was a gift from a brother who ran it on his M2 for years, if that's any indication of the woodpile nature of the "jackson White" of motorcycling | ||
| Lornce |
Road Thing: Please don't sell your S2 to build something impure.  You're right, the S2's feel more directionally stable than S1's, but the wheelbase and frame geometries are identical. Think the secret is a combination of aerodynamic stability created by the fairing at speed and the fact that your hands (and thus bars) are further removed from the airstream. It's amazing how much directional instability (felt as chassis imprecision) is created by wind induced steering input at higher speeds. Aerodynamics are a major component in dynamic stability. Adding the aerodynamics of the RS fairing to old air-cooled boxer BMW's created an impressively directionally stable machine from one of the goofiest, "hinges everywhere" motorcycle chassis ever foisted on the buying public. Lornce | ||
| Tramp |
purity would thus be homogeny- fawgeddabouddit- tear that S2 to bits and build it up to something you enjoy uniquely (& ergonomically) as yer own | ||
| Road_thing |
Tramp--the S2 in question is currently up on the stands, in primer, waiting for me to decide what color it wants to be! Nothing pure about it! rt | ||
| Bomber |
every bike is a project bike! | ||
| Road_thing |
Ain't it the truth, Bomber-dude! Maybe if I were to break down and actually buy a new bike, things would be different, but.... ...NAHH! That'll never happen!! The newest bike in my fleet is a '96! rt | ||
| Lornce |
Errmmn, the "pure" thing was a gag. I've been warned about Americans and irony. One of those "nuance" issues.... That's a joke, son. M1, imho I think you should take an S2 for a blam before you get carried away building a bike. Might save you some trouble. You've said your goal is to build an S2/3 looking bike with S1 chassis performance. With the exception of about 20lbs additional weight, the S2 already has S1 chassis dimensions. Only with a better quality WP Roma fork, the S2's chassis performance is actually higher in most street riding situations. I've never owned too many stock motorcycles, myself. | ||
| Lornce |
RT, I gotta hand it to you, man. You've always got the best profile pics. Lornce | ||
| Doughnut |
The S2 and S3 frame the same? | ||
| Tramp |
nope, they're still as different as they were back in the fourth post above- | ||
| Lornce |
Doughnut, The S2 and S3 frames are dimensionally identical: wheel base, steering geometry, engine placement, swing arm length, height, angle etc. are both the same. Bodywork is slightly different positioning the rider, and thus weight bias, more rearward on the S2. The major difference between the S2 and S3 frames are the removable plates on the S2 which facilitate easier replacement of isolators, swingarm, belts etc. The S3 replaces these removable machined aluminum plates with cast pieces that are permanently joined to the frame tubes, making swingarm removal more difficult and so isolator and belt replacement are also bigger chores. Capische`? L | ||
| Court |
>>> It's amazing how much directional instability (felt as chassis imprecision) is created by wind induced steering input at higher speeds. That is an accurate statement | ||
| Road_thing |
Lornce, thanks, I've updated it, just for you... Is that a cold Heineken in your hand?  rt | ||
| Lornce |
M1, Gnawing further on this jawbone... You might wanna look into an X1 chassis to take advantage of the 23.5 degree rake and 3.5" trail dimensions. Those chassis steer noticeably more sharply. Course they also leave you the challenge of figuring out what to do with that aluminum "thing" out back. RT, I don'know what yer talking about.... But I think Mortimer (my evil stunt double) likes to cool his jets with the odd Grolsch. Hey! Where'd the rattler go? And what's that falling off the back of your jeep? Awesome flame job! L | ||
| Tramp |
lornce- to add to your contrast of S2/S3 rider position, the S2 seats the rider LOWER as well. the dropped CG creates a fell of more aftward seating | ||
| Bomber |
Heck, Thang -- the MaDeuece (Mk Y2K) was bought new in August of 00, and started morphing before my very eyes -- when the family came over for dinner that Thanksgiving, my sister-in-law said, "hey, someone took your bike apart out in the garage!" ya gotta love a family that check the garage before coming into the house, yes? my wife responded for me, as is her wont, "he just can't help himself." aslo as is her wont, she was right! | ||
| Lornce |
Tramp, Ack-chooly.... measured vertically between the rider's portion of the seat and the centreline of the swingarm pivot, the S3 seat appears to be about 1/2" lower than the S2 seat. S3's footpegs are about 2" lower, too. One thing I failed to mention earlier when discussing directional stability was the S2's considerable flywheel effect. Having the stock Sportster flywheels (heavier than all subsequent Buells) spinning in it's cases will definitely result in enough additional gyroscopic inertia to be felt as increased directional stability when compared to other Buells. I don't have any numbers but the "Lightning" type flywheels appear to be only about half as thick as the Sportster type flywheels. Years ago I had occasion to ride the same bike at Grattan Raceway with two different sets of wheels. The difference was only about 5lbs/wheel but with the heavier wheels the bike felt like it had gained 100 lbs when changing direction on the tighter sections of the track or when accelerating hard. Suspension action was noticeably more taxed over uneven sections of pavement, too. Felt more stable down the straight, though. Was an excellent object lesson in gyroscopic dynamics and unsprung weight. Lornce | ||
| Tramp |
I don't your sources one bit, however: in painstaking measurement of my own S2T and my S3T, I've found exactly the inverse to be the case...weird, right? you really think the extra few ounces in the S2 flywheel will make such a noticeable gyroscopic change? Sounds like a stretch, but, hey- i just ride them and service/rebuild them.... iI know little of thses things academic, simple tramp dat I be. I do know the stock seat heights of my Buells, though...The S1 seat which I'm presently running has raised my sientes genitalicus a good inch and a half, as well! | ||
| Doughnut |
The S2 and S3 frames are dimensionally identical Thats what I was looking for. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Tramp.Its not a FEW ounces.Have you ever lifted a stock set of S-2 flywheels???Its pounds of weight.And it makes a noticeable difference. Also S-2T might have the touring lowered footpeg brackets,so your measurement may be skewed. | ||
| Buelliedan |
If you are looking for a cheap frame I have an untitled M2 frame I will sell very cheap! Like $100. ddunn@satx.rr.com | ||
| Lornce |
Tramp, Granted, the measurements were taken with Corbin saddles in place. Could be the stockers are different? Re. the flywheels: the difference is pretty dramatic. The stock Sportster flywheels in the S2 are nearly twice the size of the "Lightning" type flywheels in all other Buells. I'm guessing there's 6-8 pounds difference involved. Anyone taken measurements? That much spinning mass, especially near the periphery, is going to make a difference. This isn't just theoretical conjecture here, you'll feel it. Ride your S2 back to back with an S1 or an S3 and the engine response time is immediately noticeable: as is the smoother, more mass dampened nature of the S2. The effect on directional stability is the only thing that'd be tough to measure, but I'd be willing to bet you'd "feel" the difference on two identical S2's using the two different flywheels. You'd definitely feel it on a racetrack or tight road. I'm no academic either, Tramp. Just a mechanical tradesman who tries to pay attention at work, on the bike and in the garage. Knowin why stuff does what it does turns my crank. Lornce | ||
| Hoser |
Lornce : The S2 flywheels are about 3.5 - 4 lbs heavier , I have wieghed them , the actual numbers are here in my notes , .... um .... some where ? . I have the wieghts of the S1 flywheels as well as the late / pressed together wheels too , I believe those are another 3 lbs lighter yet . here's a pic of the S1 wheels parked beside the "late" flywheels ..........  My S2 has the S1 wheels in it right now , yes the lighter wheels have changed the character of the bike , quicker throttle response / acceleration. The late flywheel shown is in a race / track bike (some machining required). | ||
| Rick_a |
My favorite combo is the S1/X1 hybrid racebikes I've seen. X1 frame with S1 tank and tailsection. By the time you raise an X1 to get decent ground clearance The rake/trail gets a bit too steep/short IMO. S2's look super sexy with S1 tanks. I don't like the look or feel of those bikes, though. |
