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Buell Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through October 09, 2016 » Brake help for a 97 S1, MC is shot « Previous Next »

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Upthemaiden
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I thought tonight I could replace my brake pads/front brake line/brake fluid, but as soon as I started trying to bleed the fluid out of the line I noticed the piston/plunger/whatever it's called in my master cylinder wasn't returning. Maybe the previous owner used the wrong fluid and the seals swelled up, maybe it's just because the bike is 19 years old... who knows. I've spent the night researching brakes and reservoirs on here and google, but I still have a few questions I haven't been able to narrow down.

First... I can't find a model number or anything on the MC. I do see some marks on the bottom, it says "6 F 5 1", the first three have a circle around them. I see it's almost marked as a 5/8(which is just about 16mm). How do I even know what I'm working with here? Will any other 5/8 MC work right on this system, assuming it's not a radial.

The most difficult part being the DOT 5 fluid. None of the other reservoirs on ebay have good enough pictures to see what type of fluid should be in them. Does anyone happen to know of other bikes that people swap MCs with, that also happen to use D5 fluid, just to make my ebaying a little easier?

The rebuild kit I found appears to be #45185-96y, which seems hard to come by online. I had already been thinking about replacing my levers with some of the cheap adjustable ones on ebay that I usually put on all of my bikes, but I noticed for a little more you can get new setups for both levers including a master cylinder. Again none of the listings mention what type of brake fluid you use or what diameter the cylinder is(although they do specifically say they're compatible with a 97 S1. I wouldn't mind just trying to replace them all together, but has anyone tried anything like this... I know they're cheap, but can they be much worse than 20 year old levers??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222099840664?_trksid=p2055 119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I bought this bike in February, but spent 6 months redoing my kitchen so this bike has yet to even be on the road. I got the fork seal replaced, the front brake is the only other thing I really need to get sorted before it's ride-able. All of a sudden it's September so I'm just looking for the quickest/easiest way to get this brake working so I can get some rides in before it's too cold to bother.
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

actually... it looks like most of those ebay setups list the bore size as 14mm. I read you don't want to go any bigger because the brakes will feel soft. Is it ok to go down a size? I know most of the newer bikes switched to 1/2" which is just a little over 12mm.
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Ralph
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 12:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You can use dot four or five - DO NOT MIX THEM. The parts are not made for a specific type. Did I mention that you must not mix them? Harley uses dot five so that's what Buell used early on. Later they switched to dot four. By the way - don't mix them.

I wouldn't change the size of the master. They work very well from the factory.
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Pontlee77
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 04:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dot 5 is silicone based, but there is dont 5.1 that is like dot 4 that can be mixed, the differece is the boiling temperature. I'm sure you can flush and clean the caliper and line and use dot 4, that is more popular and easier to find in case you happen to loose some fluid.
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S1owner
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 07:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do not decrease the size if the master. You will not have the push needed for the caliper it will be soft. If you increase the size you run the risk of pushing to much fluid snd will grab hard and quick.
There are plenty of masters from buells in ebay, do not by a cheap chinese master. For a rebuild kit call Lance at St Paul Harley ( lance651on here) he will help you out. The calipers are very simple but be very careful of the bolts they are most likely seazed as they have never been apart. Soak them in penatrating oil use some heat on the head of the bolt.
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S1owner
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 07:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pm me I will send you some info
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S1owner
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 07:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182237224384

https://www.ebay.com/itm/311554739154

https://www.ebay.com/itm/311554739154

https://www.ebay.com/itm/151226814662

https://www.ebay.com/itm/311554738773

https://www.ebay.com/itm/252232873144
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for all of the info guys. I read all about the dot 3/4/5/5.1 fluid.

I agree I'd rather not use a cheap master, but most of the MCs I saw on ebay looked pretty rough, and I was worried even if I bought one I'd be in the same position I'm in now.

I kept messing with it last night, and with a tiny bit of brake fluid on the rubber seals I could get the piston to move pretty smooth and spring back. I put it back together right before I went to bed and was happy about it(no fluid, just reassembled), but I squeezed the lever as I passed it in the garage this morning and the piston didn't spring back, so I'm still not sure. Not sure if the oil got wiped off the surface by the rubber seals so now it's just rubber on dry metal again, and that won't be an issue when there's fluid in the system. I think I'll clean it up real well this weekend, and see if I can fill it with fluid right away while it's still moving well. Hopefully the fluid being in the system will give it enough internal lubrication to keep it working smoothly. I'll see if Lance can find me front and rear rebuilt kits to mess with once I've had a chance to get some miles on the bike. I was going to bleed the rear brake, but after this I'm just not going to mess with it yet. I'd like to replace the rear brake line too but I've got that brake light switch to deal with so I can save that for a rainy day.
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 08:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the links S1owner. I'll check out the links when I get home, ebay is blocked on my work computer. I'll assume some of them are probably on my watch list in ebay. The hard time I was having with them was finding listings with a good enough picture to see what type of fluid they needed and what diameter the cylinder was.
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S1owner
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 09:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From what info I see all the tuber masters and early XB masters are the same size and are interchangeable.

Advice on your rear brake. Before you bleed it and get realky frustrated remove the complete set up assembled. Hang it with the caliper down low. Put something in the calioer to act as the rotor and bleed it there. The masters are so low it us nearly impossible to properly bleed on the bike!
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I read that it was a pain! I plan on replacing the brake line when I do it so it'll probably be just as easy to pull it all off the bike and do it the way you described.

I emailed Lance about the MC rebuilt kits. Looks like he's out of the office for about 2 weeks(hopefully enjoying himself at the beach!). I guess I might as well ask about rebuild kits for the calipers as well. Then at some point I can buy all new brake lines and redo everything at the same time.

One thing I noticed, the banjo bolts on the MC and the caliper were the same size but had different thread pitch, is that normal?? I didn't stop to measure them because I was already frustrated at that point, but I'll eventually need to order some new ones.

Speaking of interchangeable handlebar parts...(wish I would've saved my old adjustable levers from the xb9!) Any chance the plugs on the harnesses are interchangeable? The turn signal button on mine is a little iffy. I'm gonna eventually pull the controls apart and see if it can be cleaned up. If it's beyond repair, any chance the xb controls plug with into the tuber harness??
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S1owner
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is a link to a rebuild kit from stpaul hd and lance
You can go through everything he has

As far as the xb controls I doubt the plugs are the same but its pretty easy to swap plugs
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's a good point. I guess I could grab any controls and just swap the plugs.

I don't see the link in your post. I tried going to their website and searching through all of the brake parts, but it's all HD stuff and I don't see any rebuild kits. I tried searching by the part number too with no luck.
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S1owner
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 01:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Link

https://www.ebay.com/itm/391544843484
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the help guys. I managed to get everything sorted(ish) and managed to squeeze in a quick 9 miles yesterday morning for my first ride of the year and first ride on the S1. Turn signals are now working, brakes both work, and my forks are no longer leaking. The bike ran a little rough for the first couple minutes, but once it was warmed up it ran perfect, which I actually wasn't expecting.

Still need to do some brake work in the future. I'll try to rebuild both brakes and calipers before spring, and unfortunately my front rotor is a little warped, but the brakes work fine for now, and I didn't even find any drops of oil in the driveway after I was done so hopefully I can get in a couple months of riding to work before winter gets here. Can't wait to strip the entire bike apart someday so I can clean and shine everything up, but that'll have to wait until it isn't my only bike.
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I managed ride to work yesterday, nice ride but I got caught in a downpour on the last 5+ minutes of my ride home. This morning I left for work, made it about 5 minutes before the bike just shut itself off. It would restart easily and idle fine, but as soon as I'd start to let the clutch out with it in gear, it would stall again. I'm guessing the 5 minutes in the rain threw some unneeded water onto the electrical connections. My first guess was the sidestand switch, but when I was looking at it, I see there's a small black plug with one black and one green wire hanging out right by the sidestand switch. I'm assuming that's the plug for the switch, but haven't been able to confirm since my service manual is in black and white, and the wiring diagram stops at that plug, and doesn't list the colors of the wire between the plug and the switch. Hopefully someone unplugged it and jumped the wires, and just did a poor job of it that I can redo, because if it's already jumped then it means there's some other kind of problem I'll have to sort out. That plug has been undone since I got the bike, so I know it didn't just vibrate loose on my ride this morning to cause the problem.

From what I can figure out, it's not the neutral switch because the neutral light still comes on, and the problem only happens when the bike is in gear, doesn't do it in neutral.

It's not the clutch lever switch because if that switch wasn't working, the bike wouldn't know when the lever was in or out, so it wouldn't make sense for it to stall only when I'm letting that lever out.

Leaves me assuming that it thinks the side stand is down(and I know it wasn't because it died while I was riding, and when I pulled over I tried a few times still sitting on the bike, and hadn't gotten off the bike to have it on the stand).

Can anyone confirm for me what the black plug with a black and a green wire just behind and above the side stand switch could be? Is that the side stand switch plug? I just had to take the bike back home and drive to work, so I haven't had the time to dig around and see where those wires go.
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S1owner
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Side stand switch
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 04:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I second the sidestand switch.
When I took mine off and jumpered the connector, I opened the switch to find that it was full of water.
It had not been in the rain for weeks!

They are waterproof enough to keep the water in but not to keep the water out!
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I figured that had to be it. I cleaned out the plug with some electrical parts cleaner and got it with some dielectric grease. I took it for a 20 minute test ride with no problems so hopefully it's good. If it acts up I'll just remove the switch all together.

I knew there was a random plug next to the side stand, so I had assumed that the switch was already disconnected. After I got to take a look I saw the switch was still connected and the other plug was something unrelated. It's a black plug with green and black wires. I assume it was for the license plate light, but I found that on the wiring diagram and it doesn't look like that has a green wire. Can anyone give me an idea what that plug is for?
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Damnut
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2016 - 03:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you want to replace your controls on the S1 you can swap them out with a set from an S3/X1. They look like the XB controls but have the tuber plugs. I had some XB controls so I just rewired them for my S1, which you can do as well.
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good to know! Thanks for the tip. I looked at some XB controls online with the thought of swapping plugs, but then I noticed that the wires were much shorter since the XB controls only go behind the flyscreen, as opposed to the S1 where they're all the way under the tank. Mine are working fine as far as the turn signals go, but even though I rebuilt the whole thing and greased it up, the button still sticks when I put on the right turn signal, and have to move it back to center manually. There are worse things in the world... Just happy to have it on the road.

Twice now after the first time my bike started stalling, it's done it(Friday afternoon after I got gas, and this morning when I was trying to pull out of the driveway), but now that I know what's causing it I can just push in the sidestand switch a few times and then it's fine. I'll just cut the whole switch out eventually when I get some time.
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Damnut
Posted on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Don't worry about the length, cut the needed length from your tuber assembly. That's what I did and it worked out fine. I soldered the wires together and used some shrink wrap that has the glue inside for a weather tight wrap.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 10:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah that shrink tube with the glue inside is awesome.
Hard to find though.
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will a rear brake line from an XB fit on a 97 S1 with a Brembo caliper? I tried digging around a bit online, I know some bikes have nissin calipers, some have brembo, I know some bikes have the built in brake light switch as opposed to the banjo bolt switch, I assume the banjo bolt threads could be different, but as far as the actual brake line itself, is the length of the hose, and the fittings on the ends compatible between all the years? When I get some time I'm planning on rebuilding all of my calipers/MCs, and replacing all of my lines with new ones, but at the moment I see my rear line is pretty rusted, and I see some cheap XB lines on ebay, wouldn't mind tossing one on temporarily before my line rusts through and starts leaking. Is there some flexibility there, or does it need to be a line meant for the nissin caliper?
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S1owner
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nope
I believe your brakeline had an inline switch the cb does not. I think the XB is also shorter.
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mine has the inline switch, which I'm not worried about. I'll just replace that with a banjo bolt with the built in switch. Knowing the XB lines are shorter is good to know though. I'll just have to try to find out if the banjo fittings on the ends are similar between the tubers that have nissin vs brembo so I'll at least know if an M2 or X1 line would fit. Most of those ones I saw online looked pretty rough too though, so it might be time just to buy a brand new line.
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S1owner
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just skip the cross ref save some time I use these and you can decide fittings etc

http://www.venhillusa.com/make-your-own-custom-bra ke-line-1.html
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Appreciate the link!

On a side note, I thought I'd put on the stock seat just to give it a try... That thing is comfortable! I know the corbin looks way nicer, but the stock seat actually has a little bit of padding and the front is curve better so it doesn't dig into my legs as much.
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