| Author | Message | ||
     Norton952 |
So, if this has been covered pardon me and point me in the right direction. I did multiple searches for here, Buell XB page HDXL Page and others. Just dont see much on this. --------------------------------- So, I have a 2001 S3 that i sourced from a guy running a insurance resale or salvage yard. Low mileage. Was lightly wrecked but minor-cosmetic. It is/was missing a bunch of parts some of which i have since purchased. (Tank, fuel pump, instrument cluster etc.) It has a Buell factory stainless race exhaust (Yeah!!!!) and a Race ECM. I would like to get it going again in its current setup. Toyed with the idea of swapping to a HSR Mikuni carb as well. (Some debate if I have to swap to a Carb type ignition as well as i see conflicting reports on that. Easy enough to go to a Dyna, Twintec or Ultima if required) But what I was wondering, I have some XB bikes as well and learning the ins and outs of ECM spy, tunerpro and others as well as trying to understand and learn EFI/ECM tuning regardless. So, why not just update the earlier systems with efi to later XB and such updated EFI/ECM systems? Many people really struggle to learn how to tune and properly set up their bikes using modern systems but sooner or later all bikes are going to that so pretty clear need to learn. It would seem to make sense, and I am puzzled why there is not more swaps and upgrades being done? (If you know of some or tutorials PLEASE post or send me links!), I read with interest a build/mod thread on the XL forum where a guy took a carb 2006 XL sportster and totally updated to 2007 EFI and some other mods. People made fun or suggested why not just do a trade in and buy the 2007 instead? But it was the challenge and fun of doing it for him. Not really feasible for a older Buell to just trade in for a new bike. Plus some of us really LIKE the older tubers! So, just estimating it seems the fuel pumps are way different but there are several ways this can be addressed. Also would need most of a harness, sensors and parts from a later Buell. Some of the sensors are different so Im researching how to address that. The crank sensor might be the biggest issue. Clearly would need to address the o2 sensor issues and make compatible, and or upgrade to better O2 sensors. Any help appreciated. Thanks to all for the great tech and resources on here. | ||
| Alfau |
Climate change and the depleting ozone layer have led to evolving fuel emission control systems in an effort to save the world. Buell introduced efi into HD production line, the first ones are clumsy at best. EBR had an updated ecm for XB's but they went tits up. Not sure if that would be the way forward. | ||
| Ebutch |
  Stay with factory race package I think it's the BEST !!!!! 02 sensor bosch 12014 (Message edited by ebutch on August 04, 2016) (Message edited by ebutch on August 04, 2016) | ||
| Norton952 |
So, Basically leave it alone and optimize whats there? If so, that is a lot easier. I have multiple Buell projects and got way deep into them, but lifes been on hold thanks to being made into a hood ornament by a drunk driver. (I actually hit her windshield so hard I dislodged the back window) so been in recovery last few years and not doing much bike stuff. Took the summer off to do some projects and getting back into working on my bikes. Ill be pestering you guys more on this, as well as dialing it in. More research and so much more to learn. I know vintage bikes inside and out. (BSA-Norton-triumph-hondas-HD) but all these new fangled gizmos are challenging. I can post new pix soon, but here is the bike as I got it a couple years back. I sold off the side skirts/intake (kept the sensor) and tail piece. I bought parts for it too. Tank, fuel pump, instruments and other bits. Will be selling the PM wheels at some point. (Upgrade to XB as per Purpony). You can see the pix here. See: http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?41527- S3-thunderbolt-HELP-questions Ill update new ones at some point. Any suggestions welcomed. Thanks again for such a great resource. | ||
| Phelan |
Actually, Buell did not introduce EFI to HD. The first EFI Buell was in '99, whereas the first EFI HD was in 1995. I'm working on an Evo '95 FLHTC-UI now with first year Magnetti Marelli fuel injection. The hardest part about trying to update DDFI to DDF2 is is figuring out where to set the timing cup and timing, since the XB cams run "backwards" of XL cams (because the oil pump is driven off the front cylinder, like a Blast, instead of the rear cylinder in a Sportster or Tuber). | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'd say that you gain nothing by trying to adapt the XB system to an old tuber. Different heads and different exhausts will mean you are basically starting from scratch doing the mapping anyway. So if you go down that road, you will have to "un-adapt" the XB stuff then "re-adapt" it to the tuber. Probably better to start with some of the megasquirt derived stuff. At least that is all engineered with an expectation to have to retrofit and tune it. You would probably have better support and resources there. So I'd say stick with the original factory setup and fix / improve that. It wasn't perfect, but people found ways to live with it and make it work pretty well. Or go to a carb setup. | ||
| Ebutch |
Buell race package is the BEST for you S3 ThunderStorm now get out there and make a Huge Carbon Foot Print !!!!!!  | ||
| Ebutch |
 factory race package works FINE !!!! | ||
| Norton952 |
Allrighty then! That confirms why most people dont upgrade to the XB systems. I just had my American genetics Ibigger-better-faster-new & improved!) triggered when I kept reading all these specs on the later systems and using dual o2 sensors, mapping and data logging, using wideband sensors and fine tuning maps when I also kept seeing references to the earlier systems were more rudimentary. If its good enough for the girls I go out with then Ill make this work. I am sure Ill have plenty of questions as this evolves. (I try to see if these things are already covered before posting) Thanks guys. | ||
| Norton952 |
Im up in the hills in Oregon. (Great roads and scenery) Speaking of your carbon footprint they sell these at the local Logging supply store.  | ||
| Ebutch |
Doug Killer Windmills https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMFZ9HBOIFA | ||
| Alfau |
Buell did not introduce EFI to HD. You learn something every day. Thanx. | ||
| Norton952 |
I remember all the magazine articles when the EFI stuff started coming out via aftermarket kits. Lots of hot rod magazines with Throttle body kits reviews, and then direct port injections. Did not take off like it was expected for the Car crowd. I remember the kits being released to fit on bikes as well early 1990s and some magazine reviews. The Harleys were an early target but I was looking at them for British bikes as well. Harley really lead the way for production bikes. -------------------- I know the guys who revived the Norton brand and came out with a clean sheet new design all right here in Oregon. Initially a 952 and because of some parts and machine shop issues went to 961cc. The prototypes were all run with Keihen and Mikuni Smooth bore flat slide carbs. But the Company ran out of money to go into production and was sold to a guy in the UK (Stuart Garner) who is now producing them again in limited numbers. Prior to the sale, There was work and testing to run EFI and they were using Magneti Morrelli ?? The Italian stuff HD went with as well. This was influenced to some degree by a local well known HD dealer who was a big supporter of Buells as well. George Latus. The new Nortons used a Sportster cassette trans initially by Andrews and then Baker trans with plans to offer the bikes in both 5 and 6 speeds. (Along with a Suzuki Clutch and Alternator and Toyota roller rockers.) Buell and Sportster owners should also recognize the Starters. The Starters are used actually on many bikes. Same starter with a different nose is also used on many 3 cyl diesel engines such as Yanmar, Kubota etc. (Modern Norton owners get their panties in a wad when you tell them you can service the starter from parts at a lawn and garden shop) When Norton was sold, and now in the UK they use a Bosch Fuel injection setup along with a OMEX Brain box. Omex is like the European Megasquirt. I have prototypes of the Norton America bikes as well as New Norton motors. Thus my interest in mastering EFI/CPU/ECM. Right now,,, Hehehehe.... Modern Norton owners are deathly afraid of doing any self tuning. A day will come when they get to where Buell and Ducati folks are doing their own tuning, TPS resets, custom maps and file sharing. While current maps for Modern Nortons are slowly being improved they are a long ways off from being where they should be. Nortons are coming along nicely but having the same kinds of development and teething problems Buell did.   | ||
| Norton952 |
Ebutch, LOVE the killer wind turbines! Reminds me of some of the vintage club rides in our area. (old farts riding fast on dodgy brakes and suspension). While off topic I *DID* love the video clip. So since I can easily be swayed into going off on a tangent..... I live near the Columbia river gorge where the wind blows fiercely nearly year round. If you drive east on Interstate 84 along the Columbia river towards Idaho and such you can see TONS of these windmill farms up on the hills. Seems there is significant tax scams the more of these you build. So, seems to be something of a scam as well as what we are being told. I loved the idea of producing cheap power. (beats Coal or Nuclear) However it seems MOST of the damn thing sit idle or freewheeling until there is enough demand. Most of the power produced by our dams, Coal plant, our Nuke plants etc is sold to California and other states. But my Electrical bills sure are not going down. (WTH ??) Yet I have friends up in Canada up near the Ski areas in BC. They tell me there is tons of these wind turbines being built and the locals are being told they are going to produce all this power and sell it to the Americans because we dont have enough power generation. Say what??? Somebody somewhere is pulling a fast one. | ||
| Norton952 |
https://www.google.com/patents/US4955348 US Patent for: Fuel Fuel injection conversion system for V-twin motorcycle engines US 4955348 A ABSTRACT A conversion kit for V-twin motorcycles to convert them from carbureted to fuel injection. Filed Nov 8 1989 -------------------------------- Fuel injection retrofit kits and supplies from everyones favorite retailer. JC Whitney! See: http://www.jcwhitney.com/fuel-injection-and-thrott le-body/suzuki-samurai/c2049d2119j1s21.jcwx ----------------------------------- See: http://www.baggersmag.com/motorcycle-gear/electron ic-fuel-injection-made-simple-basics-h-d-efi Since electronic fuel injection (EFI) appeared on Harley-Davidson baggers in 1995, for many of us, the thought of a computer replacing the carburetor’s gas and air mixing duties has been a difficult proposition. <snip> Although we won’t delve into every aspect of how the ECM gathers and uses information, there have been two general ways EFI does its job, and Harley has used both methods. Through 2001,(edit 1995-2001) the Magneti-Marelli (MM) produced EFI is what’s called an Alpha-N based EFI. <snip> Some of the problems reported with the MM EFI were hard starting, erratic idle, and difficulty in tuning. For performance motors, the dual-plenum throttle body, with independent runners feeding each cylinder, was too small to pass the required air into the engine. An advantage of throttle-based control is that there’s no dependence on intake-manifold pressure, which benefits motors with radical cams. The next generation Delphi manufactured EFI uses a speed-density method to calculate how much fuel the motor needs. Speed-density systems use RPM and manifold pressure (via a MAP sensor in the intake manifold/throttle body) to determine the load on the motor and report back to the ECM for fuel changes. Again, H-D incorporated intake temperature but accuracy was improved by moving the sensor into the throttle body. In summary and very generally, from ’95-01 H-D EFI used a throttle-position based system and from ’02 to now a manifold-pressure based EFI. There are two other important EFI operating methods: an “open loop” and “closed loop.” In open loop (’95-06) the ECM uses preprogrammed maps to control EFI. Sensor data is “read” by the ECM and then matched to a map/table/database; the maps have instructions for the amount of time an injector is on as well as ignition timing. Since the maps are fixed (read only in computer terms) even small changes to airflow (pipes, airbox) require reprogramming the map and often requiring expensive dyno tuning. --------------------------------------- In other developments, (See im known for going on tangents) I picked up a screaming deal on a 2002 Ducati 998 Superbike. It has 6 miles on it and was wrecked by the dealer while Installing the Termi exhaust and other accy. Some idiots stripped off any parts with damage not realizing why this was bad. I need a few parts for it. so the brain box ECM is gone along with battery tray, fuse block and some other bits. I was told by my friendly local dealer DO NOT waste my money buying the proprietary Termi ECM. NO LONGER REQUIRED. Just buy a used ECM and NOW the dealers can reflash/program the stock ECMs with whatever programs or maps I want. *NOTE* I do NOT know how many models or versions this applies to, might be limited but in my case its splendid news and I am learning that I can fiddle with my system just like Buell owners can. Again, Why I am trying to learn and understand all this stuff. | ||
| Norton952 |
More EFI conversions: I am on another list of misc gearheads,IT and engineers. (im one of the dumb ones but I try to keep up) So one of my gurus on EFI and Computers and such is a IT guy who likes wrenching on old stuff with modern upgrades. He is in New Zealand and has come over to visit here in the US. (We took him to strip clubs, Breweries, and went shooting guns) So he and some other nut jobs I know do all kinds of tech projects and then write about them. For a while we called this the "Little Simon" as he sourced some of these from asian made small CC vehicles. Worked really well after he reconfigured them. See: http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Tech/throttle-body-inje ction.php http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/nismocapri.php Super chargers, Turbo chargers and custom EFI. More Turbos and EFI. http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/turbo-pinto.ph p Finally, mandatory MC content, read about "Savage Bob" and then, Savage Bob gets a supercharged. See: http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Projects/SavageBob.php |
