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Gobadgers
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

On an S1, been having an issue with the well known "clicking" of the starter. Today I notice--first time I put my eyes on the battery while engaging starter--a little smoke coming off the metal battery strap right at the locknut fastener next to the VR. That end of the battery strap is hot and the other end much less so. Any ideas or experience on how to get this back in shape or what to look at?

The bike still starts with some hesitancy, but again failing. Two times I have thoroughly cleaned the cables and grounds on the bike and everything "seems" to work well for a month or so and then back to this. So I have not been addressing the problem but just putting a band aid on it. Thanks.
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OLD SCHOOL:

Clicking starter, battery terminals loose(ck every 5K as preventive maintenance)"OR" battery needs to be charged "OR" CRANKING Volts/AMPS are too low and you need a new batter, AND CLEAN ???

If you are getting MAX. SMOKE & SMELL, BARE or pinched wires and loose connections ???

Keep you battery on a trickle charge when not riding and refresh charge every 6 months so your battery will last longer

(Message edited by buellistic on October 12, 2015)
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Buell_bert
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also they may feel tight but you really need to take them off/apart and CLEAN them. Connections can corrode and this affects the resistance of the connection causing a voltage drop which prevents maximum current flow. Dirty or loose connections can arc which may give a puff. This is the easy way to find a bad connection. We should all be so lucky. Clean ALL the connections (starter, battery) at both ends then please let us know if it improves. Good luck.
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Harleyelf
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You are certain that your hot cable from the battery to the starter is not touching the battery retaining strap?

You have filed the ground strap terminal that bolts to the frame until you could see copper?

Your battery is not cracked?
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Gobadgers
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 02:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Great comments. Thank you. Helps me focus. I am going back and through all the connections again. Last month I had cleaned the connections--first with a little brake cleaner on a rag and then wire brush on the Dremel--and then applied a thin coat of dielectric grease. Made sure all connections were tight. However, I have read on the forum about star washers and wonder if I should be using these to improve the connection.

Today, I notice wear through on the negative battery cable to ground (frame) that I had not noticed before. It was not touching anything but bent at that spot and rubbing against itself I imagine. Checked the continuity of the cable and it was good, yet needs replacement.

--Harleyelf, not certain that the hot cable was not touching the battery retaining strap--took things apart again today, but if I recall it was close if not touching the metal battery retaining strap. It is insulated so never gave that a thought. As you can see there is slight wear on the insulation at one point but not through to the cable, yet that could have very well been the point touching the metal battery strap. So it got me to thinking: I put my meter on the end of the unhooked positive cable (where it would attach to the battery) and then at a point along that insulated cable and I was surprised as there is some slight continuity. Thanks, I'll be much more aware of this.

As far as the battery, it was purchased in 2011. This is a northern bike and battery is kept on tender November to April and then ridden in summer. It was load tested 3 months ago and was fine.

Off to find new cables.




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Buellistic
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OLD SCHOOL:

Put a piece of old hose over those places and tie wrap so they are not doing the WIGGLE TEST whine you are riding ...

NO SHARP EDGES CLOSE TO YOUR WIRING !!!

(Message edited by buellistic on October 12, 2015)
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Gobadgers
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 08:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Before I go much further, here is what I have. The tray that the VR is attached to and sits on the battery shelf (and the battery sits in this tray) is below. The two arrows point to where the battery retaining strap attaches.





Below is a picture of the underside of the tray. The arrow points to the bolt that the braided ground to the swing arm attaches to.




This is a shot now with the tray out and just the battery shelf. The bottom arrow points to the bolt that holds the tray in place. (The top arrow where the battery retaining strap hooks in place). The middle arrow is a bolt hole that is not used.




I am not great with electrical, but here goes. Part of my grounding issue is that I am getting current moving across my battery grounding strap. Why? Now I question the grounding plan. The braided ground from the swing arm runs to the bottom of this tray that just sits on the battery shelf and is attached at that one point (bottom arrow). There does not seem to be a serious tight connection. The bottom of the tray is painted and the one bolt holding the tray in place does not resemble a contact that is expected to provide a ground, while several inches away another poor connection to a heavy braided cable to continue to carry that ground to the swing arm. It seems the current wants to run along my battery retaining strap as the most direct route to the swing arm. Why is the ground from the swing arm not fastened to the battery shelf hole(middle arrow)? Or maybe it is suppose to be.

Again, this is not my forte. (I will pay serious attention to Harleyelf comments to make sure that my hot cable from the battery is not touching this metal battery retaining strap and some current passing through that cable.) As I said earlier, I need to get the grounding issue straightened out or there will be continuing issues. I clean the contacts and things work for a while and then start to fail again.

Finally, would a battery retaining strap out of rubber be a better alternative once I get the other issues fixed?

Last picture shows what appear to be burn marks on the battery retaining strap.


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Harleyelf
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 04:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a burn mark just like that. When the grounded parts get hot there is usually a leak from a hot cable.

Sure you don't mean "All who wander are not lost?" "Wonder" works, too, but it is no longer a Tolkien quote if you say it that way.
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Jim2
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When I replaced the old positive battery cable with a new one, I saw arching between the positive cable connector and the battery strap. This occurred when the positive cable was routed perpendicular to the battery strap. I rotated the positive cable so that its attached parallel to the battery strap and no more arching. The distance between the metal in the cable attachment lug and the strap varied between the two cable routing methods just enough to cause arching. I believe you would benefit by running heat shrink insulation tubing over the battery strap, or perhaps rubber dip the strap. Use heat shrink over the area between the positive cable insulation and the attachment hole on the lug as much as makes sense without preventing a solid contact between the positive cable lug and the positive battery terminal.
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Jim2
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you do insulate the battery hold down strap continue to pay attention to the cable routing so as to not totally rely on the insulation alone. Maintain tightness of the battery terminals to prevent cable movement.
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Gobadgers
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks fellows for all the help here. I had no sense of the leak of voltage that can take place. I am going to implement these things and let you know.

Any thoughts on attaching the ground from the swingarm to the bottom of the battery shelf rather than the tray?

Harleyelf, your excellent attention to detail is well noted and changed. I think my finger wandered when it typed wonder. However, I do both.

(Message edited by GoBadgers on October 13, 2015)
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Buellistic
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OLD SCHOOL:

If the GROUND STRAP PN 70186-82 ever comes loose your CLUTCH LEVER will get hot and smoke as it burns the lube off the clutch lever ...

THE CLUTCH THEN BECOMES THE MOTOR FRAME GROUND !!!
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Harleyelf
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That bolt under the tray looks like it's been carrying a big percentage of the overall grounding circuit. I'd re-route the cable so it bolts right to the frame.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

use those multi twisted edge washers on clean bare metal surfaces on all aspects of VR bracket.
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Gobadgers
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buellistic, I did see a little bit of a spark up by the clutch lever when the bike threatened not to start.
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Buellistic
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Gobadgers:

Take the GROUND STRAP PN 70186-82 0ff, clean and wire brush all surfaces(remove paint frame) re-assembing with STAR WASHERS(inside type) instead of lock washers ...
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Gobadgers
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buellistic, Harleyelf mentioned to attach Ground Strap PN 70186-82 to the frame. Where is the top of this Ground Strap suppose to attach? From my '96 parts book it shows the original battery PN 65981-96Y as wider front to back and narrower than the Harley battery in there now. Therefore the tray (black tray pictured above) that the battery sits in and also the VR attaches to is not original. It is the underside of this tray that the top of that Ground Strap PN 70186-82 is attached to now.

I had cleaned and wire brushed those surfaces two times earlier this summer. But had not used Star Washer at the bottom which I will get. There was a star washer at the top of this ground strap.

(Message edited by GoBadgers on October 14, 2015)
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Buellistic
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Gobaders:

On my 1997 S3T the engine/frame GROUND STRAP PN 70186-82 is connected from the MOUNT BLOCK, swingarm PN 47594-94YA(ie: rear engine motor mount) to the "TAB" on the frame where the BRAKE LINE, rear PN 45196-99Y(where the SWITCH, brake light PN 72023-51 is screwed into the fitting) ...

OLD SCHOOL: ENGINE/FRAME GROUND STRAP/STRAPS MUST TAKE THE MOST DIRECT PATH !!!

(Message edited by buellistic on October 14, 2015)
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Gobadgers
Posted on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Last night put things back together with the suggestions here and the S1 is starting strong. Thanks so much for all the help.

Made sure the positive hot from the battery was routed so it is not near the metal battery strap in addition to insulating the battery strap and the positive cable. Polished all the grounds and positive hot to make sure that the copper was showing and added the star washers. Went with the metal braided ground to the metal tab on the frame at the bottom of the oil tank. That did not ground, so went back to the bolt under the VR/battery tray. Still, I need to find a spot on the frame that grounds well. As of now, strong starting. I think my problem had a lot to do with the closeness of the positive cable to the battery strap. Whereas before that strap was very hot from the bad ground, checked again this time and it stayed cool. Thanks again for the help!
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