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Phelan
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 09:32 am: | 
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I think the race ECM would be fine with the stock muffler; I just think you'd get better mileage with the stock ECM. |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 09:44 am: |
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I don't HAVE the stock ECM, so unless I go hunting it's not an option.
But Dan seems to think the Race ECM is the proverbial teats anyway.
<shrugs>
I don't think I'm too worried about the mileage. It would be nice to get it up to the 40s and all that, but I'm not really looking to tour on this one anyway. |
Phelan
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 09:50 am: |
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Gotchya. Yeah I don't think it would be a big deal. If you ever decided to get ECMspy or find someone who has it, you could always back up your current maps and try the stock ECM maps in your race ECM, and revert back if you don't like them, or play around with it if you want to fine tune it. |
Phelan
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 09:53 am: |
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BTW, GORGEOUS bike. I have a big soft spot for touring bikes, hence why I'm decking out my current S2T as a touring machine. I bought this one in March and put about 7500 miles on it already, 2500 in the last month alone. No borrowed flamed chaps this time though if you remember that from the '95 I picked up in Detroit in '07  .
(Message edited by Phelan on September 23, 2014) |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 10:03 am: |
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LOL, yeah, I do seem to remember that.
Thanks, I also think this is a gorgeous bike.
I might just fall in love with it if I can quiet it down a bit.
If I do wind up keeping it I'll have to look into ECMSpy for sure. |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 06:12 pm: |
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So my new bike lift arrived today and as soon as I had it uncrated and set-up I needed to test it. The Buell had a sorta immediate need, so it became the test dummy.
I pulled the outlet and found the end cap and discs are attached to the baffle assembly by 6 Allen head bolts, 5 of which the heads were cracked half off.
I actually managed to unthread/remove 3 of the six, but one completely stripped to the point that I couldn't grab it or do anything with it and the other 2 SNAPPED OFF!
So I used a dremel to cut off the head of the completely stripped one (which wouldn't let me get close enough to the cap to get all of it so I then used the dremel to grind down the rest of the head) until I could pull the cap and discs out.
THAT'S WHEN I NOTICED ANOTHER BOLT FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THE MUFFLER THREADED UPWARD (DOH!)
Turns out removing THAT bolt allowed me to just pull the whole baffle assembly out (which means I could have pulled the assembly out with the discs and end cap and worked on it from the outside, oh well).
Anyway, with the baffle out I was able to remove 2 of the three remaining bolts. Unfortunately the last one pulled the captive nut out of the baffle, but at least with the baffle out I should be able to just run a nut up behind it.
There were 12 discs (which some feel are the standard amount for that muffler).
And there was NO PACKING AT ALL around the baffles.
So after talking to Dan at NRHS I decided to order the replacement bolts so I can put the damn thing back together and a sheet of packing material.
I'm safety wire the packing around the baffle and put it back together with the end cap and maybe 10 discs instead of the 12.
Dan says I might lose some top end with that, but it's worth a try.
I can always pull it and put them back in if I want to.
Hopefully the packing and disc reduction will help quiet it down a bit. |
D_adams
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 06:17 pm: |
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If there wasn't any packing at all, it will make a difference for certain. |
Fullauto
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 06:42 pm: |
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Just a note. The '99 FI bikes had a screw adjuster for idle that was hard to get at. You had to take off the cover and tank to get to it. The remote idle adjuster came along for subsequent models and replacement throttle bodies.
Keep the bike. You won't get anything for it and it is a true American classic, Erik Buell will be remembered for the Harley engined bikes, not the plastic toys that came along after. |
Jefc73
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 06:54 pm: |
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I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the sound level when you repack and put back together. Should be much quieter. Nice bike by the way and keep it. Looks great.
(Message edited by jefc73 on September 23, 2014) |
D_adams
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 06:59 pm: |
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Awww now, them's fightin' words right there. My 1st one was a water-cooled model (1125R, 2008), 2nd was an XB (2003), 3rd was another water-cooled (1190RX, March of this year) and FINALLY a tuber (2000 model in July this year). Yeah, it's just an M2, but it's a tuber none the less.
I'm more of a water-cooled guy myself, but I'm down to only one of them now. |
Woodnbow
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 11:43 pm: |
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You'll want to use high temp anti seize on everything when you reassemble the muffler. I use a product that contains copper, I think it's made by 3m. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 11:49 pm: |
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I'd pack it and reassemble with the same number of discs (same flow)...for now. Like suspension tuning - make one change at a time  |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 10:33 am: |
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I TOTALLY hear what everyone is saying about keeping it. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
I hope the packing (and maybe some disc manipulation) helps the sound level as that will be a very important step for me.
Rat I COMPLETELY understand the philosophy of changing only one variable at a time, but to be perfectly honest, it was loud enough to me that I don't think the packing will be enough. I'll just pull 2 discs and run 10 along with the packing to see if that's enough.
If that's TOO much, or it has effected performance too much, I can easily remove the assembly and install those 2 discs again.
WoodNBow - YUP, I was thinking a high-temp anti-seize would be worth a shot when I found all those cracked head allen bolts! Will do! |
Jayvee
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 12:48 pm: |
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I had a SuperTrapp before on my M2, and changing the discs didn't seem to have nearly as much effect on the sound level as it did on performance. I went down to 8 discs, and it was still loud enough I went to a stock muffler. I could feel the loss of acceleration, taking out the discs. There are lots of stock mufflers available; on eBay, Craigslist, the Classifieds here, etc. |
Phelan
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 01:17 pm: |
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If you haven't ordered the new packing already, go with stainless steel wool instead of fiberglass. It'll last a lot longer. I got a Two Brothers pack on eBay for $15. |
Robertb1958
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 04:15 pm: |
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My X1 came with a Supertrapp. I don't think it is too loud, and I think it sounds better than the V&H on my S1. I have the max recommended number of plates in.
I had to repack it. The stuffing kit from Supertrapp was a PITA to install. Doing over, I would try the SS Wool as mentioned above. And, be sure to use the thread locker....I know this is true now. |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2014 - 09:40 am: |
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Jayvee, I'll keep your experience in mind. Sounds like I probably won't want to do much with the discs, though I'll still try 10 of them instead of 12 and hope the packing makes the biggest difference. If that doesn't do the job, no harm/no foul (and only about $30) and I'll start seriously looking for a stock muffler.
Though I really would prefer a "new" part, if you know what I mean. There's gotta be something that could be done adapting a quieter muffler... hmmm, well I can burn that bridge if it gets to it.
Phelan - thanks for the suggestion, but I'm pretty sure Dan already shipped me fiberglass. No worries, this isn't going to be a high annual mileage bike for me so it should last.
Robert, maybe the packing makes the difference, or maybe it's just personal taste and "too loud" is just too subjective for us to compare. We'll see what happens.
Truly appreciate all the advice and thoughts on this fellas!
I'll report back. |
Robertb1958
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2014 - 02:15 pm: |
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One other thought: The one on my X1 has a cap with turn down tail pipe on the back so that you can't really see the discs and disc cap. I am thinking that the "tail pipe" cuts the sound down a good bit.
Thinking back, one of several things I found wrong with the X1 after I got is was that the bolts holding the plate stack had come loose, and the assembly had moved back such that the opening to the tail pipe was significantly blocked. |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2014 - 04:20 pm: |
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Hmm, you got me thinking. I've got a turn-out cap but I think I can mount it in multiple positions (one of 3 possible combinations if the bolts are spaced evenly).
Maybe one of them will allow it to be turned "downward" instead of outward?
That might have a small effect on the sound too no? |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - 07:30 pm: |
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 ** SCORE **
So a package from NRHS arrived yesterday, so I found some time to work on the Buell today.
I'll leave out the part where I tried to reinstall the packed baffle assembly with the muffler still installed. Then undid part of the front motor mount when trying to remove it. 
The baffle material I got was from Drag Specialties and it seemed particularly thick and heavy.
When wrapping it (using masking tape to hold it initially and then safety wire to hold it in place as best as possible in case I had to remove it again to change disks) I noticed that it just plain felt thick and tough.
I thought to myself - "SELF, crap, maybe you should listen to those (like Dan from NRHS) that are saying to leave all 12 disks in the end cap assembly and just see what changing one variable (adding packing) will do".
Took it for a quick half an hour romp after I was done.
Well, holy crap.
I wouldn't call it quiet. It's NOT stock.
But damn it, it's pretty darn good.
TOTALLY different from before in how it sounds. Just a deep rumble, almost quiet at idle, very tame at 3k rpm, and just barely barking at higher rpms/WOT.
Doesn't feel like I've lost a bit of performance, 0-100+ was snappy.
And if anything, it seems to have smoothed out quicker.
Most importantly, I can hear myself think rolling down the road at reasonable speeds.
I think I'm leaving it like this.
Next to track a tankful and see if there was any change, but I'm not expecting anything significant.
Maybe we're gonna get along after all. |
Easy_rider
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - 09:21 pm: |
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I'm late to the party, and distractions are abundant so I might be missing some details. Sorry if I repeat something... but:
I didn't realize your muffler had a packing option. Sounds like it works for you though! I always thought mine was a bit loud. If I get it running again I'll have to try that.
The muffler does have an option of an end cap. I bought one from Al, but never had a chance to install it. It would quiet things a bit.
If you want to try, I believe I have a stock ECM I could loan you.
I might even be able to loan a stock muffler. Not sure I'm willing to part with it permanently but it would answer some questions for you. Just a PITA to find out. |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - 10:36 pm: |
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Thanks Easy, very kind offers.
I think I'm good now.
FWIW, I've been told and the SuperTrap website seems to agree that these mufflers should have packing around the baffle.
Looking at the design and exhaust flow the packing does nothing to inhibit flow of the exhaust gases. It simply absorbs/deadens the accompanying sound waves.
And from my uber-small sample of one, I'd say that's true as it seems to have done nothing negative to performance.
A true win-win for me. |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 08:02 pm: |
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UPDATE:
In the original post I said: "was surprised when I stopped for fuel the other day... low fuel light came on around 150 miles, and I filled up by 165, but put a full 5 gallons in it. Meaning it's getting only 33 mpg."
I think when the low fuel light comes on, if I fill up right away it takes about 4.5 gallons.
Well I got out on the Buell today and was on my way home expecting to see the low fuel light and it hasn't come on yet at 175 miles, meaning on this first tank since the baffle repack (and maybe 30 miles of this tank was pre-repack) I'm getting AT LEAST 5-6 mpg better mileage.
And probably more. ...
NICE! |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2014 - 08:00 pm: |
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HOLY CRAP ... Talk about a lesson in reversion. With ONLY one change (packing the muffler) the damn bike is getting over an additional 10 MPG.... 45 MPG on the last fill up vs 33 mpg most fills before that!
(Message edited by Kev m on October 17, 2014) |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2014 - 08:23 pm: |
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It is called back pressure !!! |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2014 - 09:04 pm: |
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LOL, no it's not. Actual pressure would be a bad thing.
And in this case I changed NO gas flow restriction.
All I added was a layer of packing outside the baffle (exhaust gas passage way).
But what changed were the sound waves that were freely bouncing through the baffle and off the muffler walls, then running back up the headers meeting the escaping exhaust gases head on, reducing the flow rate out of the combustion chamber. Which in turn limited the intake charge of fresh air.
Basically making the damn thing run rich and inefficient. |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2014 - 11:11 pm: |
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Would you believe it slowed the exhaust expansion in the noise can ??? |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2014 - 07:19 am: |
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I might, I'm listening and willing to learn... |
D_adams
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2014 - 07:49 am: |
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http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/exhausttech.htm
Not that they have the final answer on this subject, but I do agree with them.
quote:We are going to state this very clearly...Backpressure does not increase horsepower. Period.
An often heard statement from the well-informed is "You need a bit of backpressure for an exhaust to work". Usually this comes from someone who is not a tuner or someone who is faced with a situation where he does not have the tools or means to adjust things. Anything you do in the exhaust will change the flows, the pressures, or velocities somewhat. The correct scenario is that the exhaust has to be properly designed and then you optimize the jetting, ecu data inputs, camshafts, port dimensions, valve sizes and the like. The exhaust has to be designed for the intended use.
This all dates from the early 1980's when Supertrapp invented a muffler designed for dirtbikes to trap potential sparks, or burning, carbonized, bits, so it could have US Forrestry Approval for off-road use. The "trapp" tells what the intended purpose was. If you wanted a Harley to barely work you had to stick a couple of pounds, or about 23-25 of these discs in the end of your exhaust. Of course this didn't really work, which is why they ended up putting a hole up the middle anyway. You don't tune an exhaust.
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Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2014 - 09:24 am: |
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Three of the most important things in exhaust system design: how long does it need to be, where does the reversion chamber goes, and the "ID" ...
(Message edited by buellistic on October 18, 2014) |
Kev_m
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 09:08 am: |
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Doesn't that pretty much agree with what I was saying.  |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2014 - 11:51 am: |
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"RIGHT ON !!!", Kev_m !!! |
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