| Author | Message | ||
     Gnutlethal |
Here you can see how losing a valve at around 90 mph with throttle wide open looks like. DAMHIK    Pretty much everything inside the cases was toast. Your pictures don't show that much structural damage, so let's hope for the best. | ||
| Sambodean |
Gnutlethal, thats insane! tomorrow i pull the head. My fingers are crossed. The deal with the xb parts fell through, so if anyone knows of a spare head/piston, please let me know! | ||
| Sambodean |
Gnutlethal, i see that your engine is still in the frame, but the jugs along with the head are off? how did you get the rear head off? everything i read says it can't be done while still in the frame... | ||
| Gnutlethal |
That was in 2008, so I'm not sure if I remember this right. I think that I've loosened every tie bar every other connection between frame and engine, removed the oil filter and rear wheel and, after removing the front head, rotated the engine downward around the rear isolators. | ||
| Sambodean |
roger, sounds like almost as much work to lift the frame! but thank you for letting me know that there is another way!! | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Here you can see how losing a valve at around 90 mph with throttle wide open looks like. That looks like a clear case of detonation. Valve failure not being the cause but a result of. Rocket in England | ||
| Blu1hockey |
Looks fubar to me. | ||
| Gnutlethal |
@Rocket_in_uk: Sorry, I have to disagree. The most renowned Buell mechanic in my country diagnosed the failure after the first rebuild of my engine from an incompetent HD stealer. If I remember it right, it seemed like this workshop assembled the front cylinder including the rocker box first and turned the engine over, before waiting for the lifters to bleed down. That slammed the rocker into the top rocker box cover, leaving a remarkable dent and a weakened valve. I was oblivious to this fact, did the whole "run in procedure" for many miles... And after opening the throttle just once after breaking the engine in, the valve simply snapped.   No detonation here, ever. Ignition has always been working spot on and I've always used the most expensive fuel available. But lets get back to Sambodeans problem. I just wanted to show a few comparison pics. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Sorry, I have to disagree. The most renowned Buell mechanic in my country diagnosed the failure after the first rebuild of my engine from an incompetent HD stealer. Oh really. What's he renowned for. Not having a clue what he's looking at or talking about when it comes to mechanics? You think that valve got eaten away like that over many miles without you noticing it coz it was installed without the lifter being bled down and it got bent a wee bit? Somehow though, I think you've misunderstood or misquoted whoever this mechanic fella is of yours, is more likely  That slammed the rocker into the top rocker box cover, leaving a remarkable dent and a weakened valve. I was oblivious to this fact, did the whole "run in procedure" for many miles... And after opening the throttle just once after breaking the engine in, the valve simply snapped. You'd have been running on one cylinder for all of that time if such were the case. Not to mention the weakest component would have likely bent first. The pushrod then. That valve has melted! It isn't chewed up and spat out like that through a chunk of steel banging against a soft alloy piston. No detonation here, ever. It's been in a furnace for f**k sake. But lets get back to Sambodeans problem. I just wanted to show a few comparison pics. Well yes, and no. If you're wanting to show comparison pics, then fine. But let's not get the causation wrong, as that is to mislead and would not be helpful but more detrimental when trying to diagnose someone elses problem based on one you've diagnosed incorrectly in the first place. Rocket in England | ||
| Screamer |
Rocket, I'm sorry to disagree, but... Sambodean's photos show witness marks as if there's a piece of debris in the chamber, I'm not seeing indications of pre-detonation - I'm probably overlooking something. Without examining Gnutlethal's piston firsthand, I'd be unable to tell if there was a pre-detonation issue, but I'd suspect the valve breaking was the predecessor to the rest of the damage. | ||
| Gnutlethal |
Suffice it to say, that I have enough trust in this mechanic that I believe what he told me. Never been running on one cylinder, never had any loss of power. http://i.imgur.com/4PE2zh5.jpg At least HD Germany and the stealer that overhauled the motor for the first time accepted the documented failure and diagnosis to pay most of the second repair bill. On the internet it's always difficult to describe something in full detail without creating a droning monologue. Next time I will surely try to not take part again as not to offend the authorities here anymore. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Next time I will surely try to not take part again as not to offend the authorities here anymore. You're right. Don't if you want to keep your head in the sand and learn nothing, as all you will do otherwise is risk misleading others into believing you're right. For the sake of argument, where do you believe the STEEL has gone from the edge of the valve head, and what caused this harder than aluminium steel to disappear? Do you believe the valve head snapped off at 90mph it clattered around the combustion chamber only a few seconds to end up looking like it had been in a meat grinder for a week? The cylinder head is aluminium, as is the piston. What does this tell you? The piston crown surface has melted, extreme heat moulding the area around the hole into a bowl shape. If it were just mechanical damage the crown would look a lot different, it showing collision damage and possible tearing, a broken up area where it had likely been punched through. As a side note, there is no such thing as pre detonation either. There is pre ignition and detonation - and a misuse of these two clearly defined descriptions. Rocket in England | ||
| Screamer |
Sorry for the pre- detonation use, it was a term a former co- worker insisted on. A valve head can get hammered against the exposed seat or the remaining valve to pound up the edge. Yes, the piston would yield the most, but even for only 3 seconds at 4000rpm the piston would be at tdc 200 times and have the opportunity to inflict (and receive) an incredible amount of damage. I've seen dozens of top ends where the valve broke for one reason or another and looked just the same as the one in Gnutlethal's photo ---- but with no scarring or cracking in the ring grooves or the clean frosted region on the top of the piston that usually proceeds the crown collapsing/piston melting or any others signs of overheating. Rocket, I've got to admit - you write the most entertaining posts on this sight... | ||
| Buellistic |
Did the valve break at the valve keeper ??? Dropped an EX valve in my 2000 BLAST which was a defective valve which there was a bad batch of them ... | ||
| Gnutlethal |
You're right. Don't if you want to keep your head in the sand and learn nothing, as all you will do otherwise is risk misleading others into believing you're right. Guess I won't here. Oh really. What's he renowned for. Not having a clue what he's looking at or talking about when it comes to mechanics? Well, I just hope you aren't one of the many that I know from the ukbeg.com forum, who is using his oil pump drive gears. I don't think I'll be able to make my point here. When this happened, about six years ago, I wasn't "mechanically inclined" at all. So the first thing that I did after stopping was trying to start the engine that mysteriously stopped working at high speed. And that sounded like the aforementioned "meat grinder". I'll gladly provide you with more detailed pictures of the piston (which has loads of collision damage and is barely damaged by heat and not melted at all), the smashed spark plug and so on. But I'd rather do so via private messages as I'd rather not continue cluttering up this thread. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Well, I just hope you aren't one of the many that I know from the ukbeg.com forum, who is using his oil pump drive gears. I'm not thanks. S&S crank and rods in mine I don't think I'll be able to make my point here. Why not? It's a Buell forum  When this happened, about six years ago, I wasn't "mechanically inclined" at all. I was So the first thing that I did after stopping was trying to start the engine that mysteriously stopped working at high speed. And that sounded like the aforementioned "meat grinder". So, a matter of seconds? Half a minute before you shut off? And it never ran on one cylinder only. I'll offer you this. When the valve head broke off, at some point it came into contact with the protruding stem. It could well have been sideways on or other debris sandwiched between. This contact is what pushed the stem up into the rocker, thus pushing your rocker into contact with the rocker cover. Yeah I know. Tell me I'm wrong. All you needed to know back then was how the valve head broke off. It certainly wasn't from a lifter not bleeding down and causing damage which weakened the valve. Enough force to do that would have bent the pushrod first, and if your valve stem were weakened as you put it, it would be a bent valve. That would have caused you a loss of compression and poor running in that cylinder all of the time and miles you ran it in for. But it wasn't like that because that isn't how it happened. It's as I said above. Incidentally, I've straightened a good few bent valves over the years, in a range of engines, from Honda C50 to twin cam 16v turbos. If a valve seat grinds in perfectly, the valve isn't bent. They are never weakened. After all it's only bent once and bent back again. So heat is the real enemy. Anyway, believe as you will. German mechanics, I've shat 'em  Rocket in England | ||
| Gnutlethal |
Well, good luck for me then, that your believe wasn't shared in the HD complaints department. Else I wouldn't have been able to afford my second repair then. Good luck in further the further sharing (or what was the word you used for these German mechanics?) of your wisdom. | ||
| Alfau |
His what ? | ||
| Sambodean |
Update. I just ordered a used pair of s1 heads. Basic, and same as what i had. Even if i don't end up needing them,they were cheap, and will get the job done. Enough justification, the real question i have is, are there any after market aluminum pistons that will work with the stock Evo heads? Basically just flat tops I'm assuming... The only place i found that sells the regular ones is harley for 100 a piece, and i might as well buy a set of forged ones for that price (most sets are 200-400 for aftermarket). I'm assuming they HAVE to be the regular flat top in order to work with the stock valve clearances etc. any leads on forged aftermarket heads? | ||
| Alfau |
ask this guy. http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/m.html?_odkw=pistons&it em=281034639883&_osacat=0&_from=R40&ssPageName=STR K%3AMESINDXX%3AIT&_ssn=davidjayuden&_trksid=p20467 32.m570.l1313&_nkw=pistons&_sacat=0 | ||
| S1owner |
JG pistons has some and no they are not flat top i think Wisco also | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Well, good luck for me then, that your believe wasn't shared in the HD complaints department. It's more than likely you were the recipient of good will. The report you speak of, necessary for the paper trail back to the complaints dept bean counters is all. Believe as you will. It's your engine. Your bike. Your prerogative. And from where I'm seeing, your naivety too! Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Cut out the personal garbage. | ||
| Blu1hockey |
Why Blake? Isn't it helpful and informative on the subject? | ||
| Sambodean |
S1owner, thanks for the heads-up. Hopefully the head will be off tomorrow, things have been hectic! (Message edited by sambodean on June 04, 2014) | ||
| Dannybuell |
Gnutlethal :-) This isn't the usual thread. Don't give up, it will get better. | ||
| V74 |
until sambodean gets his heads off we have no idea how much and what damage has been done and if its like what gnutlethal experienced and I would hold off getting any new parts until the heads have come off as as yet we don't know what needs replacing. | ||
| Kalali |
V74 - Best word of advice, so far. | ||
| Sambodean |
I ran into a little problem today. All the manuals I've read say i can disassemble top of the engine with it in the frame. Im stuck on the rocker cover.On the rear cylinder, and rear right allen there is barley any clearance for an allen wrench. Im wondering if this is normal and if others had to cut an allen, and use vise grips to get it off. also, how the hell am i going to pull of the jug if I'm having so much clearance issues already with the rear cylinder? I guess the easy answer to all this is just to remove the engine, but if all of this is not normal, and my frames bent, i have a much bigger issue on my hands than i want to deal with, and ill cut my loses now. clean titles don't always mean clean.... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Yeah, you have to chop an allen to fit it in there. |
