| Author | Message | ||
     Newmans3 |
Almost 2 years since I got my 99 S3 and no signs of bubbling or paint issues, but the Buell decals are not there and want to add them. I read in another thread here that someone had bubbling problems with letters and tape stripe even though the tank paint was fine. Don't want to create any issues by adding them, anyone have any experience or info on this? | ||
| Lynrd |
Veronica had that. Good paint (other than rash from a parking lot tip over) but the clear failed over the decals badly - looked like sheeut. I went for the raised letter logos as used on the later model and sometimes available on eBay. They won't bubble...not as smooth as the original decals, but smoother than original decals plus bubbled and blistered clear. | ||
| Newmans3 |
Thanks for the info, gonna do the raised letters too, any tips on correct position? Also, do you apply them like tape ones with soapy water so you can adjust the position until they dry? | ||
| General_ulysses |
I just took home an S1 this weekend. Never owned an earlier Buell with the paint "bubbling" problem before. But now I have a spare tank that came with the bike and I can see the bubbling on it. The ONLY place the bubbling occurs is precisely on the decal lettering and no where else. It appears as if the adhesive in the decals acts as a sort of slow acting paint remover on the paint over time. It could be that the adhesive that was in the original decals was incompatible with the paint. New/different decals with different adhesive may not cause this problem. When you guys say raised lettering, you mean like the lettering on my Uly? | ||
| Ratbuell |
It's not adhesive...the decals prevent the outgassing, and "catch" the fumes where (when painted properly) the paint allows it to pass through without bubbling. | ||
| Newmans3 |
General, yeah they are about 1/16" thick or so. Rat, so I should expect bubbling if I go with the newer raised lettering style? | ||
| Essmjay |
Don't use the raised ones if you are in a hot sunny climate and your bike spends time in direct sunshine. The heat makes them come loose and/or move around. They can also cause bubbling of the paint underneath, I think because of the localized heat sink effect. | ||
| Newmans3 |
Never thought of them being a heat sync. I live in eastern PA, and she is in the garage unless I'm riding. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Is a silkscreen or stencil available for actually painting on the Buell logo? All I would be interested is the simple "Buell" part, the "American motorcycle" part I could leave out. Seems like a painted logo would solve all the problems and still look stock. | ||
| Essmjay |
I can make you a paint mask. Self adhesive and easy release vinyl for painting. $5 for P&H. It would have both parts but you can just cut off what you don't want to use. Shane | ||
| General_ulysses |
Thanks Essmjay, I may very well take you up on that. Out of curiosity why hasn't anyone else done this yet for their own bubblin' tanks? Based on many previous threads I've read on the subject it seems like a pernicious and recurring problem. A problem that would likely be permanently corrected with a painted logo. Also, how do you paint the logo on and be able to remove the stencil/mask without screwing up the fine paint lines? Is there a special technique for this? Just want to make sure the lettering is just as crisp and clean as the decal. Thanks... | ||
| Newmans3 |
Wouldn't painting the logo trap the gases similar to a decal if the correct paint isn't used like Rat said? | ||
| Essmjay |
Removing the stencil just means using due diligence. You peel following the edge so you break the paint line. I am not a auto painter, but I use paint masks all the time. It comes out pretty sharp. Since you would not be painting the whole tank I would stay away from clear coat combo's and just use a gloss with an airbrush so the coat isn't super heavy. If you use a rattle can just be sure to apply thin coats with the correct dry time between coats. Normally doing this you would want to paint the whole tank because painting onto existing paint means having to sand so you can get good adhesion. But, if you have access to a bead blaster you could put the paint mask on and after covering the rest of the tank to protect it, bead blast the area you will be painting. (The paint mask is durable enough that I use it for sandblasting on glass at 40psi using silicon carbide.) Then after bead blasting to get a good surface you could leave the mask on and go ahead to paint. If your tank is not bubbling the paint by now it probably won't in the future. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Not sure the problem is really "trapped gases." How can this be proved either way? The various layers of paint serves as a water/gas tight membrane, similar to that of a mylar decal. Also, how can we be so sure fuel vapors/gases actually migrate all the way through a plastic tank in the first place? In my opinion, I think it's more likely to be some kind of adhesive incompatibility with the paint. Or perhaps related to the decal not expanding and flexing with the same degree as the tank and paint moves with thermal expansion. Either way, even if there were gas vapors migrating through the tank & paint, it does not appear to have caused the paint to delaminate or blister on the tank I have (only on the decal area and no where else). Therefore, it should not cause any problem with one more thin layer of paint used for the Buell logo. | ||
| Lynrd |
It's not that the gases are being "Trapped" - the tank has a vent on it. It is more that the plastic is semi-permeable and the gas fumes can penetrate and react with the paint, and with the adhesion of the water transfer decal material or the paint. I would imagine both WHICH specific paint is used and the local gas additives all play a part in if and when it fails. Because the raised letters are thicker, the letters themselves don't bubble. But...the outgassing would be more on hot days...and that might contribute to the failure of the adhesive sometimes, too. Mine haven't gone anywhere. I am trying to seal it with really good. 2 part epoxy primer, and letting it cure (literally for months). EssmJay - I am interested in a set of those stencils as well | ||
| Essmjay |
If you want a set of stencils email me at essmjay at gmail.com with address info. Shane | ||
| General_ulysses |
Thanks essmjay, I'll take you up on that. Lynrd, I'm not sure I agree that the most likely culprit for decal bubbling is gas vapor migration through the plastic tank and through the paint as well. What evidence do you have that the tank is semi-permeable? Or that the paint and clear coat is semi-permeable as well? And if all those things are semi-permeable, why wouldn't the plastic decal also be semi-permeable? It's also made of plastic and, unlike the tank, is very thin. I'm not aware of any clear evidence that these things are actually happening. I can't prove they're not, but I'm doubtful it can be proved they are. In my opinion, based on the appearance of my spare tank, it certainly looks as if the decal adhesive is behaving like a slow acting paint remover. I can't prove that's actually what's going on, but it appears that way. Another possibility I was thinking of is that the decal may be shrinking as it ages, especially if it is exposed to hot sunny days combined with occasional gas residue due to spillage during refueling. I'm old enough to remember these things called "shrinky dinks", which was a toy of the 70's. They were these clear plastic sheets that you would cut into whatever shape you wanted and then decorated with colored magic markers. Then you would put them in the oven and when exposed to heat they would distort and "bubble" before shrinking to a much smaller size. The blistered decals somewhat resemble what I recall those shrinky dinks looking like inside the oven. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RycEOlAyuXs | ||
| General_ulysses |
I researched this subject a little more. Looks like Buell themselves have stated that the problem isn't an issue with the paint. It's an issue with the decals. Here's an excerpt from an old thread where Al Lighton weighs in on the issue: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/47623/3 16370.html?1194328096 "This info came directly from the good folks at Buell that were kind enough to forward it to me when I'd asked about how to prevent paint bubbling on Buell Tube frame tank repaints. This is what they use to paint the tanks originally, and Buell hasn't had a problem with PAINT bubbling, only decal bubbling. They won't warranty that if you follow the info contained herein that you won't have paint bubbling, but I'm guessing you won't have a problem if you follow it. Al PPG primer we use Primer is K36 PPG Hardener is K201 PPG Reducer can be any of the following DT-895 DT-885 PPG base coat types we use The Base coat is Deltron 2000 which is DBC PPG clear coat we use DCU2042 PPG is speed clear Hardener is DCX9 PPG Reducer can be any of the following DT-895 DT-885" So it looks like the issue isn't vapors migrating through the tank. It's the decals themselves that cause this problem. What I see on my old '97 tank appears to exactly confirm this as well. Below are two pics of my tank. The only place bubbling occurs is precisely in the decal area and nowhere else (tank is now 17 years old). It looks like if you follow the Buell provided advice above and paint your logo on instead of using a decal, the problem will go away permanently. Also, I think it's possible that when the clearcoat is painted over the decals, the clear acts as a solvent on the plastic decals and may soften them. Weakening them and their adhesive so that they bubble later. Either way, using the recommended paints above and painting the logo instead of using decals should cure the problem.   | ||
| Lynrd |
What is weird is simply that HD has been using , presumably, the same paint and decal materials on Steel tanks for 5 years and this has never been an issue there. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Lyrnd it may be that the Buell tanks were painted differently than the HD tanks. I worked at a bodyshop ages ago, and although we never painted motorcycles, I recall someone talking about painting decals on motorcycle tanks. He said you have to spray on a very light coat of clear at first. Then let it tack up real good until it's almost dry. Then do another coat the same way and let it dry. Then finish with 1 or 2 more normal coats. He said if you hose the decal down with a heavy coat of clear, the solvents in the clear will react with the vinyl and adhesive and either make it peel up right there on the spot or peel up later. I also read that there are two types of vinyl; interior and exterior grade. The interior grade will outgas when exposed to sunlight, whereas the exterior grade will not. If the decal outgassed trapped under clear coat, that could make them delaminate and bubble. It may be possible Buell sourced the wrong type of vinyl for their decals...and/or their painters were too heavy with the clear on the initial coats. I'm guessing the Buell painters weren't as experienced as HD painters, especially in the mid-90's when things were really just getting rolling. I checked the PPG paints listed and it looks like everything is still available. The primer is an epoxy type primer. So it sounds like your plan to use an epoxy primer and let it dry a good while is a smart move. Just be careful with using decals. I'm sticking with painted logos and stripes on my repaint when it comes and avoid the issue altogether. | ||
| Ratbuell |
So it looks like the issue isn't vapors migrating through the tank. I disagree. If that were the case, why would tanks bubble where there are no decals?  |
