| Author |
Message |
    
Lynrd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 03:45 pm: | 
|
I think you'd be surprised how much torque there would be at that location - that post was based on a lot of work I did in the nineties working on rubbermount frames in general. We did all big twin - FLT and FXR style, but experimented with Sportster.
I consider the Dyna two point system as flawed and would not develop against it.
Going back and studying the drawings of the Buell pivot - I see your point. Swingarm should still be able to maintain orientation with engine thanks to that big ass cast rear pivot block. So the big impact would be handling. On the aftermarket rubbermount sportsters that we prototyped, there was a big problem with keeping belts on, which we attributed to the above, plus the long distance between front pulley and swingarm pivot points yielding two different arcs of travel for the assemblies.
That pivot point would move if not well supported - in this case, by removing that member, he has converted the entire pivot point into a long lever. Ever use a breaker bar to twist a bolt that wouldn't budge with just a ratchet handle? The only thing holding that frame together is the battery tray assembly, whick isn't triangulated and will flex, particularly with a long lever to help it flex.
Re- your problem - The problem with just building that material back up with TIG is you are going to introduce a lot of heat if you do not go very slowly and keep moving to different points within the repair. Too much heat (or actually, temperature differential) will lead to hardening the steel at the point where the heat changed, which in turn will lead to failure of the tube at that point as vibration and torque are fed into it. However, a really good welder, airframe certified, could likely do a respectable job.
Some may say you need a to put the frame in an oven to normalize it. If they propose to do that, be sure to ask how they plan on jigging the frame while that happens....I actually wouldn't advise that step if you aren't jigging the frame. Just go very slowly and methodically.
Honestly, if we had been faced with that choice, It would have been cut out the offending section, make spuds, and do it right. We were never accused of taking shortcuts... |
Thejosh
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 07:09 pm: |
|
I shot him a text. He is saying the previous owner did it and the bike handles "like new". Not sure what he means by "new" as in "has a new problem driving straight" or what. Reminds me of the Red Green show. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 07:14 pm: |
|
thanks for the weld suggestion, the original welds are wire welds, IIRC but the slow and moving makes sense, I may send it to Jramsey here on bd for a weld up he used to build race car frames, and gets the 4140 steel thing.
I wonder though experimental aircraft are commonly built from 4140 with dacron skins, and the tubing is oxy acetylene welded, the heat input there has to be significant....
the cut frame has 3 tubes and the battery tray trying to keep it self strait, I bet right turns are "interesting" and flex under hard acceleration is likely noticeable, I would give him 500$ for it as a parts bike. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 07:18 pm: |
|
"He is saying the previous owner did it"
Glad I am not purchasing it
its fixable but only by a pro with the right tools and know how.
BTW no 02 bung, so the ddfi is not working properly
(Message edited by oldog on July 04, 2013) |
S1owner
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 07:51 pm: |
|
I think its funny that now a previous owner did it when earlier he was following the instructions! |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 09:17 pm: |
|
He probably bought it because of the flash-n-trash on it...rode it...realized "whoa...WTF???"...and now has it on eBay.
Pure speculation of course... |
Lynrd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 10:33 pm: |
|
@Oldog - Yeah, you're right. Buell/HD switched up from TIG to MIG to speed production - My S2 is TIG, the S3s are MIG.
Because of the weld shape with MIG, I'm not crazy about the idea for structural tubing, but the stock frames seem to hold together ok - I think the stock frame are an really good design from a geometrry standpoint, and were built with good welding technology, and that helps a lot.
Still, for any thinwall chromemoly stuff that I do, it will be TIG. I think you'd really have to have a nice MIG setup to do a good job with our frame material - and my MIG is not all that great. Works good for what I use it for, mild steel plate and general quick and dirty crap - but I wouldn't be doing motorcycle frames with it. I imagine the factory had a better one than mine.
Honestly, my O-A bottles really only drive a cutting torch most of the time. It would be much slower to gas weld and not nearly so pretty a weld would be created, but there is nothing wrong with the technique. Given a choice, I wouldn't do the repair you asked about with O-A because of the overall heat build up due to going much slower at lower temperature, but it could be done.
I know some bicycle guys use O-A with Chromemoly, and I also know a very good welder - more greybeard than me, who will bore you to tears explaining why brazing is the proper way to go with chromemoly.. He and I have a good lively beer fueled debate once every 2 months or so on the subject. I think we are both right but I will never tell him that.
Re: the battery tray area providing support - of the three tubes there, only the 1/2" tube directly under the battery would have any real structural significance on the swingarm pivot plane - the other two are in the wrong spot, and none are triangulated so the whole area can twist and fold by being distorted at the corners. The one under the battery would help some, granted, but it's pretty much hanging there all by it's lonesome with a long lever hanging on one end of it to help twist it.
Good eye on the O2 bung - man, this thing just gets better and better. |
Stensg
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 12:24 am: |
|
So any word on this? |
Kalali
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 07:59 am: |
|
Looks like someone bought it for $4550. If so, he'll show up here sooner or later... |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 09:20 am: |
|
Pretty sure he's already here, and will not pay for it, thus escalating it to eBay staff when the guy files a complaint. |
Thejosh
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 11:14 am: |
|
4Speed said he put a 5k bid on it for the purpose of getting eBay to make the guy either put it in the description or have it listed as salvage, not sure but yes, eBay will be getting involved |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 11:52 am: |
|
Lynrd
Thanks for the input, it will be a while before the frame gets fixed, the bike still rides ok and does not do any thing weird.
Most Buell listings on E-bay make wild HP claims, and or the bikes are hacked up,
This one is one of the worst.
I missed the tube under the battery tray there is a rail at the front of it that would offer no support
That bike falls under the ooooooh loud and shiney category..... |
Mikeyp
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 04:38 pm: |
|
Are people insane? Retarded? On Meth?
I think this guy is all 3.
He then has the balls to sell it as everything is ok.
Amazing how people can sleep at night.
I felt bad and for selling my Ducati 1198s to a over 50 year old guy.
He knew nothing about Ducati's and i told him that the bike had in excess of 175hp.
He "needed" the bike cause he bought his wife a "fire engine red" Honda, and he needed to match her.
I often wonder if he's allright. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 05:43 pm: |
|
I felt bad and for selling my Ducati 1198s to a over 50 year old guy.
He knew nothing about Ducati's and i told him that the bike had in excess of 175hp.
LOL care full many of us oldsters ride and some still ride hard...
I am 56 and own an 1125R } |
Fasted
| | Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 10:33 pm: |
|
i have a well worn patina that i am proud of. i know a lot about ducatis. i owned a couple of desmos before they were "cool", and before you were even your dad's boner.
you will find that some of us have taken many years to accumulate a great amount of useful knowledge that you haven't even given a thought to yet (and may never know)....we might even be willing to help you some time....(you ain't one of those damned hipsters , are you?).......btw, i guess you didn't feel so bad about his safety and stupidity that you wouldn't take his money........... |
Steeleagle
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 - 06:23 am: |
|
Yep. I think Oldog and Fasted have covered it. Thanks! I haven't been riding as long as most here, but I didn't get this old by being stupid! ...and BTW, my 1st bike was an 1125R. |
Mikeyp
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 - 04:16 pm: |
|
Lol!
You guys are missing my point.
He had more money than smarts.
The first time he came to look at my bike, i didnt sell it to him.
He was lusting after the bike, and after months of "haggling" with me, i let it go.
The guy is a grown man, and i am not there to preach to him on the dangers of hi performance motorcycles.
Also, a few notes on me:
I am 46 years old and i have been a BWB member since the begininng, (or close enough...)
I still do track days, and i am a well enough rider.
Almost pulled the trigger on a Panigale this season, but im waiting to ride an EBR first.
I like riding with old fast guys.
I don't like riding with old guys who think they are fast. Thats dangerous. |
Stev0
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 - 07:00 pm: |
|
I like riding with old fast guys.
I don't like riding with old guys who think they are fast. That's dangerous.
I know what you mean. We're responsible for ourselves.
With experience I don't get myself into the situations that my reactions USED to be able to get me out of..
I don't HAVE to be the quickest on the mountain anymore, some of my mates that had to be aren't with us anymore. } |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 - 09:37 pm: |
|
Dead on Mike!
Great to see you pop in once in a while.
Brad |
Oldog
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 12:24 pm: |
|
LOL I resemble that remark, the older I get the faster I was. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 03:53 pm: |
|
Bottom line, no matter how old you are, there's always someone faster!
As someone said we did'nt get old by being stupid! |
Rex
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 06:12 pm: |
|
who would cut a whole in the frame and leave it that way? |
Fasted
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 06:23 pm: |
|
a squid, rex....they handle saws very well... |
Kyrocket
| | Posted on Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 12:37 pm: |
|
Is there any news on this bike? Been waiting for an update of any kind. Curiosity has the best of me. Wondering what the real story is; owner did it, per or not per exhaust instructions, bought it that way, PO did it?? |
Foximus
| | Posted on Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 02:32 pm: |
|
Meh... Whats the big deal....
Buy it, then repair the frame. |
Lynrd
| | Posted on Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 03:40 pm: |
|
then replace the exhaust....DOH! |
|
