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Buell Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through August 22, 2014 » Barn Built Buells » RR1200 Battletwin & RS1200 Westwind exhauts? « Previous Next »

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Greg_cifu
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 12:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It seems that either the owners are coming out of the woodwork or the bikes are finally starting to change hands. In either case, a number of motorcycles from the original Buell Motor Company are in need of replacement exhausts, my RR1200 included.

So the question: how many people need headers? Would you be interested in a replica of the original exhaust (muffler and header) if it cost $800? $1000?

I've already discovered that the original muffler is nothing more than a Supertrapp Elite slip-on muffler. In fact, it even looks like their supplied tabs were used by Buell to mount it. The muffler alone sells for $300ish for the 17" and $450ish for the 19".

That leaves the header. It's a complicated beast. I need one. It looks like K12Pilot needs one (or more ). Others have to need them. A purchase of five or more units might bring them down to the sub $1000 range. Remember: we're still talking about hand-made exhausts--lots of labor.

My guess is that the reproductions would not have every weld and seam in exactly the same spot. In fact, to achieve the shape, they would probably be made out of bent and straight sections, welded together, then sanded smooth and brushed. In other words, they'd be 90% authentic but, unless we found somebody who had the same bending and flanging equipment as the person who made the originals, they'd probably never be exact.

Unless somebody knows where there is a stash of OEM headers?

Discuss.
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Steeleagle
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 05:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Let's hit Dean up and see if he wants a bone tossed his way or if he has the capabilities. I'll make sure he sees this thread.

I have a "template" off the bike he could use.
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D_adams
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is an exact replica required or can you live with one thats spring retained?

The last full system I built is this.











The set prior to that one.



And another set.

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S1owner
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

D Adams you do nice work!
I would think the spring retained would relieve stress from the header also more room for expansion and contraction. I will call on you when I need one for my S1!!!!
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Mikeyp
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Gorgeous workmanship!
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Davegess
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Those Supertrapps are not exactly the stock slip ons. We had to whack them with a hammer to put a clearance dent in them; )
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B2tomtom
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just installed the full system in the pics from Dean on my 1125. He builds a really nice system that is definitely built to last. He is great to deal with and helps out in any way that he can.
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dave: I stand corrected. Being the detail oriented guy I am, I will be sure to match the nose radius of the ball-peen hammer to the muffler on my Westwind.

In all seriousness, do you still have any way to contact whoever made the headers or have any idea if the welding fixture might still exist? It's close to the shape of the S2 but, not quite.
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Jumbo_petite
Posted on Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 04:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dave

Did you use a regular sized hammer or a BFH? LOL.

(Message edited by jumbo petite on June 30, 2013)
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Davegess
Posted on Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I can ask a guy i know. I'll let you know.
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 02:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dave, I just crawled out from under the Westwind. You weren't kidding about that dent.

That must have been one BFH to make that much of a depression. Damn! It sure tucks the muffler up there against the engine, though.

And the hanger looks like more than just welded tabs as I've seen on others. It has a nice collar passing through the tabs and welded, with a rubber bushing inside it. Was that a later change to the design from basic, drilled holes, rigidly bolted to the engine mount?

I'm going from other photos I've seen of Westwinds and what remains bolted to my RR's casting. Not sure if the RR should be "correct" or "fixed."
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Basti
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

HI
keep things simple, you can use an S2 header it will fit. Or you can use an S1 header with an elbow this will fit also (unfortunately the S1 race header will not fit), I tried both on all my bikes and my 4 Speed RS actually runs a 2,5" S1 header with a later Supertrapp.
I may also have an extra orignal RS header in my parts department, Ill have a look.
If you wish you can contact me under
s.gschossmann@live.de
Thanks
basti
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Actually Supertrapp may have done it for us but the big hammer makes a better story ; )
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Kevmean
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm sure if you contact Albert he will make exact replicas of the headers the same as he has done with the race headers for X1's ....his work is first class as i'm sure a few badwebbers already know ; )
He would of course need to borrow an original as a pattern :-)
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Basti: yes, there are a number of exhausts that fit but, aren't original. The biggest concern is how close the header fits to the engine. All of the later headers (including the S2) are far enough away to require a proper hanger bracket. Not the RR/RS. A big hanger bracket in this photo would be a dead giveaway that it was the wrong exhaust.



The restoration of my RR is going to head down one of two paths: absolutely original or not-quite-original. Right now, I'm assuming that bolts and other hardware are going to get cleaned, stripped, replated and new zinc-chromate treatment--just because I want the hardware to be the right color. If I go to that much trouble, the exhaust needs to be right too.

Dave: Thanks, I feel better knowing that. I was wondering if you guys had some massive pile of foam or a polyethylene foam mold or something you put it in before wailing on it. No marks anywhere else. That would have been impressive. I'm guessing an arbor press and a dense foam mold to support the rest of the canister.

Kevin: thanks. That's an option. Just not sure how many others would want one (or more) and that was the point of this thread.
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Basti
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

well the RR has a full fairing, even if you use a bracket nobody will see it :-) and to be honest I havent used a bracket on the RS with the S1 header with no problems so far.
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Greg_cifu
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, the RR has a full fairing but, I'm not sure how much clearance there is in there and it's still somewhat visible through the front wheel area.

You really need to install a front bracket. The weight of the exhaust is now hanging at the very back, on a single bolt, and at the heads. All the mass of that exhaust is flexing right at the collector. You're begging for complete failure of the tubing.
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D_adams
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

After a little bit of discussion with Dennis, I can probably do them, but I doubt I'd be able to perfectly replicate it as is. The originals look like the tubing is flared for a slip fit, but welded instead of spring retained. Not sure why they'd have done it that way except for the ease of assembly for a mig welder, then just slap a quick weld around it. If that's what you want, I'd have to go buy one (not a big deal) but if you'd rather have tig welds, that I can do. It will be a while before I can get into doing anything with this though, I am about 6 weeks out on current work and I have an 1125 cr being dropped off next week to work on.
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K12pilot
Posted on Friday, July 05, 2013 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg,
Understand about trying to keep it original.
But until I can locate a correct header for the RSS.
I made one out of an S2 header needed to add about 4.5 inches to it from the trashed original pipe I cut off. So far so good. I also used the S2 pipe hanger. When the shock comes back I might have to get the BFH out to field modify it the spot where the shock adjuster is, it just might be too close. Yet to be seen. I put an S2 shock on it for the duration.
Check my PMX thread for pix. I will post one mounted.
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K12pilot
Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 08:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

S2 Header on RSS.




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Greg_cifu
Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, see that huge gap between the pipe and the engine? That's what I'm not comfortable with.

I have an S2 header on the way for a temporary fix. I'll probably reverse engineer the one on the Westwind to try to determine where the changes were made. The individual tube components look the same. I'm wondering if they just skooched things around a little differently before welding.
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Steeleagle
Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2013 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have both an RS header and S2 header unattached. My next trip to the Bat Cave I'll see about setting them side-by-side and take some pictures. It'd probably be easier than eyeballing them on bikes.
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1313
Posted on Monday, July 08, 2013 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The S2 frame is a little wider (.400" sticks in my head) than an RS/RSS frame for the use of a belt final drive.

I know the RS/RSS and S2 headers are darn close, however an RS/RSS header will not fit on an S2. But I suspect that the main difference(s) between an RS/RSS header and an S2 header has a lot to do with the wider frame of the S2 - i.e. rear head pipe ~ .400" further out...

It will be interesting to see what the eyeballs can discern,
1313
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D_adams
Posted on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Looks like I'll be picking up a 2000 M2 Cyclone, so I may give this a go at a later date. I have no idea what shape it's really in, I haven't seen it in person yet. I realize it's not a match to what most guys here want, but it's a start anyway.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

BBB bumped from the archives.

Thanks Chris!
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Phelan
Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dean, if you design the exhaust so that the rear headpipe goss over the frame on that M2 instead of under, then the '95-'98 guys like myself can use it too : D.
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S1owner
Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Would that just be the same as a S1 with 2.5" outlet? He has those already if I am not mistaken.
Dean you move your operation stateside yet?
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D_adams
Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've always been in the St. Louis MO area. This will be my first attempt at doing tuber headers and it will be a while before I get to it yet. Between building stuff for XB's and 1125's it's been busy, then there's the 1190 RX stuff I've been working on as well.
Just got the M2 home last weekend, it's a bit rougher than it was described as. I may (possibly, maybe) take Dennis up on his offer of a test pipe to work with from one of his bikes later as well, depending on how the initial foray works out for the M2. I may end up getting my own tubing bender, but I'll probably have to move if I want to do it. I have no room left in my garage now.

From what I saw, the one I have is a 2.5" outlet, but it's at the front of the motor, not on the side. We shall see how this plays out later this summer. I have a fair bit of work to get done as it is, so development stuff is in the back seat for right now.
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