| Author | Message | ||
     Jramsey |
"hey james isnt your afv slightly high ?? how does it run like that?" Yes it is but the S3 (stock ecm)likes it at 110-115 my X1 (race ecm) likes 115-120, both have fresh intake/exhaust gaskets. If I reset to 100 they idle like shit and throttle response is not much better. Both bikes run very well,others here have reported the same findings. Notice the battery voltage? For some reason the latest version of EcmSpy on my pc the battery voltage has always 1.2 volts less the earlier version then when checked with a VOM.........go figure. | ||
| Two_seasons |
ETS. Your symptoms mimic mine. As you said "As I began to accelerate away from the yield sign, it began to buck and pop badly and the CEL came on." (Message edited by two_seasons on April 22, 2012) (Message edited by two_seasons on April 22, 2012) | ||
| Gixxer86g |
James, what intake/exhaust setup do you have? I have the American Sport Bike hamcan and D&D full exhaust. A couple of weeks ago, Neil(01x1) hooked my bike up to ECMspy and set the AFV to 100. I noticed an improvement. | ||
| Jramsey |
S3 stock air box with K&N filter,Wileyco can with 2-1/2 core. X1 econowinder K&N inside stock cover,Proseries Supertrapp with 16 disc. I believe part of my high AFV's may be caused by the crappy 10-15% Ethanol fuel we now have, AFV use to always be right at 100-103 back when we still had pure gas. (Message edited by Jramsey on April 22, 2012) | ||
| Bikerrides |
I'd say this is a fouled plug!  Gonna change it and test ride it again w/the HTS disconnected and see if I get a good result. If so, then I may very well have a bad HTS. Is there a part# cross reference so I can get it at a auto parts store? | ||
| Buellistic |
Are you still getting a O2 sensor code ??? Have you tryed un-pluging the Rear head temperature sensor ??? (Message edited by buellistic on April 22, 2012) | ||
| Bikerrides |
Front and rear plugs fouled; rear was by far the worst. Tried to upload pictures, but the files were too big. I haven't had a chance to test ride it yet because its raining; should have a window for that in an hour or so. Now, if the HTS is bad and the ecm shut down or richened the cylinders, could that explain the fouled plug(s)? Assuming it's going to run well and things point to a bad HTS, is the part available at an auto parts store? 99 S3T. | ||
| Bikerrides |
LaFayette, why do you run different plugs in the front and rear cylinders? I believe your rear plug is hotter than the front. I assume it may have something to do with the inherent cooling differences between the cylinders. Should I consider doing the same? | ||
| Essmjay |
I thought the AFV was dynamic and the bike adjusts for conditions on it's own. Am I wrong? | ||
| Bikerrides |
I think LaFayette's bike is carbureted, so that wouldn't be a possibility, right? I guess that would mean my bike would compensate for the different plugs automatically assuming everything is working correctly. I'm about to go out for a test ride to see if it runs right since changing the plugs. Should I clear the trouble codes first? Will it clear the historical codes? | ||
| Knwyman |
My understanding of the AFV setting is that between 2500 & 3500 RPM over 40MPH, the ecm goes into closed loop learn mode & make a determination on what the AFV should be then it makes a global correction to the fuel map. I just did some tuning to my bike S3, race intake, supertrapp w/21 discs(closed endcap) & race maps. I found the race map to be very lean in low to mid rpms. My AFV was around 116 ususally. It is now at 100. Bikerrides: It sounds like a head temp sensor problem, my bike is doing a similar thing but I get a code 14 stored which is engine temp sensor shorted to supply voltage. I have not checked my plugs but to me it seems like the bike runs lean (farting & popping through the intake) but it also feels like a rev limiter -as if the spark is being cut. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Even though the plugs look fouled, I'd bet changing to new won't change anything. The ETS, Engine Temp Sensor, located on rear head, can be disconnected for trouble-shooting purposes. EDIT: After thinking about this, and re-reading this entire thread, I still think you have a flaky ETS. Reason I say that is you have disconnected the ETS with little change. So it's either wiring or the sensor itself, as not much changed with ETS disconnected. I'd replace it if I were you. http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/17035.html I bought the removal/installation socket too. (Message edited by two_seasons on April 22, 2012) | ||
| Bikerrides |
OK, I just reset the AFV and the bike runs tremendously better when accelerating hard or easy. I can feel the bike begin to skip as I ease off the throttle and when I settle her down on 3K rpm, I can feel that constant skip; it's much worse at 2500 rpm and will actually cough and sputter. I am currently running w/the ETS disconnected. On the odd chance that the IAT sensor is contaminated w/oil, I sprayed some mass airflow sensor cleaner on it and am about to go ride it before I reconnect the ETS. Couriosly, the cold start enrichment is now at 199% and was at 106.5% when I posted a picture yesterday. Would having the ETS disconnected explain that? If not, who on here knows why that is? I have noticed that she is more difficult to start and I'm sure that's why. | ||
| Knwyman |
I think disconnecting the ETS could cause that cold start enrichment issue. Here's something to try: Do a short datalogging ride with the ETS connected. Then load that file into MegaLogViewer & filter one of the graphs to look at CLT (engine temp). I think the line should be a fairly smooth line from low to high. My sensor is bad & it has times when the graph looks smooth & other times when it's jumping all over the place. | ||
| Bikerrides |
OK, I reconnected the ETS and went out for a ride. Skipping a little, but not horrible. As long as I'm moving the throttle, it seems to run fine, but when I hold her steady at any rpm now, it skips. Went out on a freeway run to get the engine temp up and see what would happen. About 7-8 miles at 70-80 mph and I felt the power cut for a second then it came back. I just held it there and it cut and coughed again. I rolled hard on the throttle and it really protested for the first time while accelerating. From that point forward it really cut out a lot. It really ran very rough and I thought it was going to die on the freeway. Then the low fuel light came on; I knew it was close because I had ridden 200+ miles and was planning to get gas anyway at the end of the freeway part of my ride. Plus fueling would give it a little time to cool off. After fueling, it ran much better. So much better, that I was wondering if the skipping and sputtering was more about low fuel than the ETS. Anyway, I think I need to try a new ETS and see what happens. Does anyone know if there is a car/truck ETS that is the same as what's on my bike? 99 S3T. If not, what is the HD/Buell part# and I'll see if HD has it, reluctantly that is. | ||
| Alfau |
I read somewhere that it's important to complete your journey ,any journey,in closed loop mode,(between 2500 & 3500 RPM.)Reason being,learn mode sets up ECM for a smooth start the next time you start up; the fuel values are correct according to the bikes needs etc. When the bike kicks into closed loop there is some farting about. Ps. The latest ETS from American Sport Bike has a protective collar to hold the cable off the motor. If your ETS protective wrapping is frayed, the heat from the motor will affect the reading as the motor warms up.Make sure the fuel tank isn't holding the cable hard down on the rocker cover. | ||
| Bikerrides |
The covering on the wire does look a little tired where it connects to the ETS at the head. It doesn't look like its cut or anything, but has a fuzzy look to it. | ||
| Alfau |
If your ETS is still working you could wrap the cable with heat resistant exhaust whatsie until you get a new one. Another thought; I relocated my Air intake sensor to up behind the bug catcher because heat was radiating from the motor affecting the reading. (Message edited by alfau on April 22, 2012) | ||
| Bikerrides |
Well, well, well...today I decided to do a couple of tests on the ETS that were suggested to me by a couple of folks on here. First, I used ecmspy to watch the engine temp for linear movement from start up to 140C. I decided on my own to datalog it in case something showed up unusual. I don't have a way to datalog while riding at this point, so I did this in my shop with the bike on a repair stand. At first, I let the bike idle until it reached 60C then I held the throttle at about 2800 rpm so the temp would rise more like it does while riding. Everything just ticked up 1 or 2 degrees at a time until around 95, then it dropped to 93 and back to 95 or 6; it jumped around 2-3 degrees until it got to 98, then it was linear again until somewhere around 135. I had moved the rpm up to 3K or a little over before then and I began to notice the backwards movement by a couple degrees, then up 1 or 2, then back; it just kind of jumped around within a range of 3 degrees for a few seconds. I also noticed what seemed like a few misfires/skips in conjunction with the non-linear temp reading. When the temp got over 140, it became linear again. So, this test seems to confirm the possibility of a bad ETS. At least the readings correlate w/my skipping issue at sustained 3K rpm over longer durations. As the heat rises, the skip comes in when the ETS starts moving in a non-linear fashion. Now on to a test that Al Lighton suggested in a post on these kinds of running issues. While the bike was running and while watching the engine temp on screen, I wiggled and tugged fairly gently on the wire connecting the sensor to the harness to see if the temp would move up or down abruptly. I assume this would indicate a short or faulty connection, which could warrant a replacement. I didn't see anything that might indicate there could be an issue in this regard. Now for the really interesting part. Somewhat on a lark, but based on a post I read, I decided to disconnect the plugs to the ECM, clean the connectors w/contact spray, put some dielectric grease on the connectors, clean the outside of the connector plugs and ECM, then reconnect everything. I also did the same thing to the bank angle sensor, which is located just in front of the ECM. Back on March 28, I posted the following in this thread: "I rode over to HD today, about 10 miles, and when I got there I noticed several small drops of oil on the right side of the rear fairing just under where my right leg is." I followed it up on April 1st with this post: "I've been noticing for about the last 5 days a little miss or skip when running at a steady rpm. After the oil droplets I saw last Tuesday, I decided to have the HD tech test ride it Friday." The post I read that prompted me to clean the plugs to the ECM and BAS was about running issues similar to mine related to contaminated connectors/plugs to the ECM. My running issues seemed to appear with the presence of the oil droplets on the rear fairing, which came from the breather via the breather hoses from the heads. So, on the odd chance that I had contamination of the connectors to the ECM, which are directly behind where the oil droplets were appearing, I decided to clean the connectors. Actually, the BAS is even more in the line of fire from the breather, which is why I went ahead and cleaned it, too. Now, off for a test ride, but not before resetting the AFV from 90 to 100. I could tell immediately upon acceleration from my driveway that something was better. As I rode the side streets to the main roads, I felt even better about the results. No skipping, crisp throttle response, etc., etc., but I'm staying within closed loop as much as possible to let the ECM learn. I could really tell that it felt like it was running soooooo much better, but I was skeptical because I hadn't been out on a long stretch at speed, so I headed for the freeway. I hit the freeway for about 20 miles mostly between 70 and 80 mph. I kept waiting for it to start coughing and sputtering or for the power to feel like the throttle had been cut and then back on. It never blinked an eye and ran as smooth as silk!  The few time I hit the throttle hard, it just took off like a bolt of lightning i.e. Thunderbolt.  I did notice an occasional skip between 2K and 2500, which I understand is pretty normal for these bikes. Compared to what I've been experiencing over the last month, it was hardly noticeable. If it'll continue to run like this, I won't change a thing! Wow, the bike just ran flawlessly, but I don't want to get my hopes up. I'm off work tomorrow and plan to do some riding to see if today was a fluke or not. Assuming it was not, I would have to conclude that oil from my breather had contaminated the connections to the ECM and/or the BAS, which was causing my running issues. However, based on the first test I did today I would have to conclude that there is the possibility of a ETS issue, which might explain the occasional blip on the radar. However, the bigger problem may have been the oil from the breather getting behind the rear fairing and contaminating the connectors to the ECM and BAS. Looks like I'm going to be adding a catch can. Anyone have suggestions for what and where to put it? I hope to be back here tomorrow with another good post that everything went well out on a ride.  | ||
| Davefl |
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| Dannybuell |
Bikerrides ~ EXCELLENT report. I learned something extra today, THX. MY 96S1 has XB rockers and uses a 'T' connector connecting the heads and making one drain line. A second vent line is the transmission breather, I decided to connect this to my catch can. the third line leads to the back of the bike behind the tail light is a vent screen filter on the end of it. All three leads have a brass barbed fitting secured into a plastic spice bottle's screw cap. The catch can is held in place quite nicely with a big loosely fit zip tie wrapped around the oil bag supply and return lines. When the spice bottle fills up I slide the zip tie down and unscrew the plastic bottle to drain. I screw the bottle back on and slide the zip tie up. The assembly is very light and works well. (Message edited by dannybuell on April 25, 2012) | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Nice when its simple, even if it wasn't easy. Pegasus Auto Racing makes a nice catch container that is very reasonably priced. It's been discussed a few times, let me find a thread for you. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Here's the part: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.a sp?RecID=4703 Discussed most recently on the XBoard: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/671131.html?1334082134 It has been talked about here (Old School) as well but it's been a while and those threads are now archived, or maybe hiding in the M2 section... I forget stuff like that sometimes | ||
| Bikerrides |
Update: Today I was able to do quite a bit of riding and have come to a lukewarm conclusion. Cleaning the connector plugs to the ECM and BAS definitely improved the driveability issues, but it didn't eliminate them as I thought after the brief 20 mile ride yesterday. I don't have the coughing, burping, CEL, loss of power stuff going on that had me scared to take the bike on a long ride, but it still skips intermittently when holding the throttle steady between 2500 and 3K rpm; I haven't noticed it hardly at all 3200 and higher. What's the most puzzling is that the skipping isn't always there. There were a few times that it was as smooth as ever at the lower rpm. I'm puzzled by the fact that as long as I'm moving the throttle open, it doesn't miss a lick. When closing the throttle, I can notice a skip occasionally. When holding the throttle steady at the point that the engine is between 2500 and 3K rpm is when the issue is present. If it were the ets, it seems to me that once it begins skipping, it would also miss when accelerating or decelerating in closed loop mode. But that isn't the case. I'm beginning to think in the direction of the tps. I wonder if it might be a defective unit, since it was replaced in December, and the contacts in the sensor aren't connecting well unless it is moving. Any opinions and is there a way to test it w/ecmspy other than watching the bar and voltage on the screen? Also, does anyone know how to check or set the calibration on the ets? I've read on here that even if the ets is good, it can cause driveablility issues if it is out of calibration. If I can recalibrate it, at least I can rule that out as a possibility. I feel better about how the bike is running, but I've got some more tests and research to do. | ||
| Knwyman |
I'm not sure about troubleshooting the TPS other than a reset to zero. The ETS is not able to be calibrated. The ECM would be calibrated to the sensor however, I don't think this is the case on our bikes. In certain types of microprocessor controlled applications, temp. sensors are "graded" & the micro must be set to recognize the grade of sensor. What are you running for fuel maps? I ask because prior to generating custom maps for my bike, I was using a race map which was quite lean throughout mid-range, especially on the front cylinder. 2500rpm is pretty low, almost bordering on lugging, especially with the stock S3/X1 cams. I seem to remember my M2 being better in that RPM range but I'm not positive. In anycase, sounds like you've made some progress -time to datalog & get everything dialed in! | ||
| Alfau |
is there a way to test w/ecmspy I found this..Hope it helps. Warning To prevent ECM EEPROM corruption, this operation should only be performed with a fully charged battery and ideally with the “Lights” fuse removed. Before you actually reset your TPS to zero, It is recommended a test of the TPS reset procedure is performed in order to confirm that the TPS reset is working properly. This is optional but may save some headaches if things don’t seem to be working right later. Hold the throttle in the 1/3 open position, and then execute a TPS reset with it held steady there. Close the throttle and go back to Overview mode. Slowly open the throttle. If the Throttle Position bar graph remains stationary until you cross the threshold position that you held the throttle at (i.e., 1/3 throttle) and only then starts climbing, THEN you know that ECMSpy is communicating correctly and that you have successfully set the TPS Note The easiest way to check if the throttle stop is no longer engaged is to turn the throttle grip to zero and force it there gently. If when you start to open it, you can feel it gently sticking, this means that the butterfly is wedging in the throttle body and you have achieved absolute closure Note When forcing the throttle closed so that it gently sticks as described above, note the TPS Voltage value each time. It should be within .01 volts each time you do this. If not, there is something wrong with the throttle body or Throttle Position Sensor. (Message edited by alfau on April 26, 2012) | ||
| Bikerrides |
This is good to know, Allen. I will be doing these tests next time I can get time to work on it. I have wondered about this. Sometimes, when I connect to ecmspy, the tps values will flicker between two numbers, say 4.6 and 4.7, with the throttle being static and no one touching it. Has anyone else seen the same thing? | ||
| Jramsey |
Normal,EcmSpy displays the tps number in tenths, yours is at 4.65-4.66 | ||
| Oldog |
Rides, check in your ecm spy for the additional maps, IIRC there is a temp sensor map for intake air and cylinder head temp. | ||
| Bikerrides |
Thanks Oldog. The last few posts have given me more leads to check out. I know I'll find the pesky gremlin eventually w/all your help. On Tuesday, I datalogged the first test I did while watching the ets for linear movement. Last night, I downloaded megalog viewer and was able to take a look at the data to see where there were abnormalities. If anyone knows exactly what I need to look at and how to identify potential issues, I'd appreciate some guidance.  |
