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Buell Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through April 05, 2011 » 02 X1 won't star after oil gear replacement « Previous Next »

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Mebuellx1
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 06:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just replaced oem oil drive gear with updated one. When I had the gearcase off, the cam gears were not lined up with timing marks. I installed them lining up timing marks like manual instructed. Now, the bike will not start. I am thinking that the cam position sensor may be off? Any ways of figuring the timing without the breakout box that is used in the manual?
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Jramsey
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

" When I had the gearcase off, the cam gears were not lined up with timing marks"

If the cams didn't fall out then they were timed correctly.

"Any ways of figuring the timing without the breakout box that is used in the manual?"

Use EcmSpy to check the timing.
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Mebuellx1
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 07:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will the VDTS tool do anything? I have that but I do not have the ecmSPY cable.
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

MeBUELLx1:

Have a 1999/2000 FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL which has the "STATIC TIMING" set up ...

If you want a copy to set up your timing, just PM me and page copies are yours ...
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The cam timing marks can be confusing. If the bike was running okay before, but you re-arranged the cam gear alignments, then it's possible to goof up their alignment/timing.

When you set the alignment, did you ensure that the front cylinder was at TDC of compression stroke?


Cam Gear Alignment


If not, then you might want to check to ensure that the valves haven't hit the pistons.

(Message edited by blake on March 06, 2011)
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Mebuellx1
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake
I lined my gears just like that picture in the manual shows. I did not check front cylinder but I thought if I lined the pinion gear line up since it can only go on one way and then line gears up it should be correct. I did get the bike to start, I didn't have the trigger rotor lined up with camshaft. There is noise from top end but I also put new lifters in. I may pull one rocker cover off to check in case.
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Kilroy
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It doesn't matter where the pistons are within their stroke. If you have the cams lined up per the above drawing, they must be lined up correctly in relation to the crank and to each other.

Kilroy
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Ratbuell
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just out of curiosity...why did you realign cams that were in a good-running engine?

And, Kilroy is *almost* correct. His statement is valid, IF #5 is also aligned, because it mounts to the flywheel.

I think...it's been a while since I had cams out...
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Brinnutz
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you rotated the shaft with the pinion gear, turning the motor, and then aligned the cams off of the pinion gear, you should be good to go.
Ticking is normal with new lifters...
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good to hear it's running!


>>> I did not check front cylinder but I thought if I lined the pinion gear line up since it can only go on one way and then line gears up it should be correct.

Kilroy and Ratbuell seem to be saying the same.

The thing is that it takes two complete revolutions of the crankshaft (pinion) to generate one complete revolution of the cam gears. Or for every complete 360o revolution of the pinion (crankshaft), the cam gears turn just half, 180o. So while the key in the pinion gear sets its orientation which indeed then governs the rest of the gearing's, it is possible to get the marks lined up and have the cam timing 360o off (out of 720o total). In other words, the pinion is in the same place twice per engine cycle, once during the compression stroke and again during the exhaust stroke.

Setting the cam gears on the wrong stroke would leaving the exhaust valves open during the compression stroke but closed during the exhaust stroke, and the intake valves would be open during the power stroke but closed during the intake stroke. So if you were to line up the gears at TDC of the exhaust stroke, the bike would not run and valves would hit pistons.


(Message edited by blake on March 06, 2011)
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Mebuellx1
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ratbuell:
Before I took the cam gears off, I marked them with a sharpie. After reading the manual and seeing the timing marks, I felt I would be able to reinstall them more accuratley by using those marks that were stamped on the gear. That was why I did it that way.

I would have rather not done this much work to it but figured I should do the oil drive gear before something happened and had a pushrod seal leaking anyway. OEM drive gear looked good though, only 20K.
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Mebuellx1
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the help and info everyone.

Blake:
If your post about cams lined up at TDC during exhaust stroke is correct, I may have lucked out as I did not take that into consideration.
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Foximus
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

on a sidebar... whats the deal with the "updated" oil gear? Is it justa different material?
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Mebuellx1
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Updated oil gear is the bronze gear that was made to replace the oem gear. It is supposed to be much stronger. I guess they have had problems in the past.
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The OEM OIL PUMP DRIVE GEAR in a SPORTSTER will last a long time until you put the EVO SPORTSTER ENGINE in a BUELL or put a BUELL rider on a SPORTSTER ...
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Jramsey
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

" it is possible to get the marks lined up and have the cam timing 360o off (out of 720o total)."

I don't know where you learned math but when I went to school there was only 360 degrees in one full revolution.


Cam rotation is half of the crank rotation on every 4 stroke.

(Message edited by jramsey on March 06, 2011)
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Thylacine
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2011 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

360° off. Really?
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Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2011 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think the new gear is beryllium copper.


quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_copper


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Willydac50
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There are actually 2 oil pump drive gears, 1 is still a steel gear and carries an "a" suffix to the part number and the gear you want is a beryllium gear. The replacement is from the "Pro" series (racing) and the part number is 26391-06. Costs about 43-49 bucks. I've seen more than one of the original gears go south around 15000mi and up to make it a simple coincidence. I'll post up some pics of the lunched gear I'm replacing right now when I get a chance.
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