| Author | Message | ||
     Jim2 |
It's official. I'm the victim of an exploded clutch grenade plate!  I'm thinking about going with an energyone clutch extra plate w/spring clutch pack. This way I replace all plates both steel and friction plus spring for the same price or cheaper then if I just buy the two fired friction plates plus the plates needed to replace the "spring/grenade plate" from HD. Anybody want to comment on this idea? | ||
| Buellistic |
CLUTCH PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT "INFO"(getting rid of the "GRENADE PLATE") !!! E-mail me(Ljenne73c@verizon.net) and a copy is yours ... | ||
| Jim2 |
LaFeyette, I already knew about this improvement thanks to you. When I had my primary cover off to replace the worn starter gasket I had intended to perform that very product improvement. Due to several factors I made the decision to skip the improvement for now and do it later. I bet it wasn't 100 miles after I made that decision when my spring plate let loose!!! I skipped the improvement because I didn't have the spring compressor tool, I didn't have the sprocket lock tool, the HD/Buell dealer didn't have all of the parts I would need in stock, and last but not least, I was in a hurry to get back on two wheels. Anyway, now that the damage is done I'm thinking about the complete EnergyOne replacement and I'm looking for comments about that before I make that move. The cost is a huge driving factor here in my decision process. | ||
| Cyclonemick |
Energy One makes a good product! And it sounds like you already know but it does away with the Grenade plate like Buellistic's "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" Either choice is good! If your existing plates are worn I would go with the Energy One, (good Price) but if your other plates are in good shape you can go Buellistic's Route! | ||
| Jim2 |
Only the two plates nearest the exploded spring plate took damage. So that would mean I need to replace two friction plates plus buy the addition plates in place of the spring plate. HD want's $23 to $25 per friction plate and $10 per steel. It would be same or cheaper to go Energy one route for all new steel/friction plates. I'm just looking for feedback on the Energyone product and if you have alternatives let me know. So far Energyones $106 complete pack sounds like the way to go provided it is performs good and lasts. | ||
| Sloppy |
I HIGHLY recommend that if you have more than a few thousand miles on the bike that you replace ALL the disks. I didn't and I have an annoying "squeal" when I start off from a stop. Also the clutch is "grabbier", so the grenade plate does add a wider engagment range. Regardless, I'm glad I made the swap. | ||
| Buellistic |
BUELLers: When "i" did my clutch up-date "i" used some used plates ... Friend had just up-dated to a RACING CLUTCH(same as the OEM CLUTCH, "BUT" without the "GRENADE PLATE"), so "i" got his old clutch ... Had more miles on my OEM clutch than was on used clutch ... Just put the used plates in and have never had any clutch problems ... There should be a lot perfectly good used clutch's in BUELLdom where BUELLers have went to aftermarket clutch's ... The GLAZE(if any)can be broken so the clutch does not squeak and since you basically will have a RACING CLUTCH you have to be careful on letting the clutch out as it is easy to make the rear wheel spin(a chirp is what you will hear) ... | ||
| Bluzm2 |
+1 on what Sloppy said. I added a used plate and 2 frictions disks to my 45,000 mile S2. Squeals like a pig on take off. sounds like I'm lighting it up on every take off. It gets a little better when fully warmed up but never goes away. I even tried scuffing up the friction plates, that didn't help... $160 for the plates and compressor is a pretty decent deal. Next on my list of "Things To Do".. Brad | ||
| Fast1075 |
The Energy One kit I used was very high quality and worked very well....the tech info and customer service were top notch. Just be sure to presoak the fiber plates before installing...(as you should on any wet clutch).. | ||
| Sloppy |
The "chirp" is not from the tires... it's from the clutch, but YMMV.  Could be why they put that plate in there in the first place... | ||
| Buellistic |
The "GRENADE PLATE" was put in for a soft releasing clutch !!! Maybe you can explain why after 2001 the Sportsters clutch's did not have the "GRENADE PLATE" and the BLAST/XB's never had the GRENADE PLATE ??? And a BLAST has bad rear tire CHIRP !!! | ||
| Jim2 |
I've not removed the clutch basket, I don't have the right tools (big sockets). When I manually spin the clutch basket around I hear a sound each single revolution. It sounds just like a ball bearing that is missing a ball or spacer. There is one single tick sound each revolution. I really need to get in there and inspect the bearings. I believe I have accounted for all of the rivet pieces and all of the spring steel pieces. My basket doesn't look scarred or gouged. Hard to believe as I probably put about 800 miles on it after the spring plate let loose. My friction plate stack mic's out to be about 1mm over the minimum thickness called out in the service manual. I'm not sure what the measure for a new set of OEM plates should be? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
i removed the grenade plate when i rebuilt Betty ('02 X1) and have since put 7000 miles on her without ever hearing a squeak or any other strange noise. The only noticeable difference is a "less civilized" clutch engagement as others have mentioned, but I got used to that quickly and it's never bothered me. FYI, all the clutch plates were the original used ones from the factory (6677 miles on them when I rebuilt everything) the two steels and one friction plate were brand new. I put a thin film of Lucas assembly lube on the new parts as soon as I received them, then let all the clutch plates both new and old soak in Formula+ for a couple days before reassembling everything. | ||
| Jim2 |
  Here is my primary drain plug with metal shavings  Here is the same plug cleaned   This is the clutch hub. Notice the rivet pieces and the fiber/metal sludge.   The spring plate had three spring pieces let loose and they bunched up together leaving a gap in one area and an extra thick portion in another area. This explains why the bike would pull at a stop with the clutch lever in one minute but I could roll forward and then it would nolonger pull.  At the bottom left are the two fiber plates that are damaged. These were closest to the spring plate. At the top right of the picture are the fiber plates that look good still.  Here is the spring plate with spring pieces and the rivet pieces.  Here the primary drive sprocket and clutch hub is removed. What's wrong with this picture?  Can you tell now? This explains the clicking noise I heard when I spun the clutch hub around by hand. The balls would travel and click together. I though it would have been the clutch hub bearing not the primary drive shaft bearing.  This bearing looks good. I already got a quote on this one from HD. They want $71 for that one single bearing(HD# 36799-91)!!! I priced one on the internet at a Houston bearing supply store (there's dozens of them here). Between $4 and $12 depending on style (PEE 6207-C3). Link to bearing supply. https://www.houstonbearing.com/storefrontCommerce/search.do?searchType=keyword&keyword=6207+C3&emailAddress=&numResults=  Closeup of the clutch hub bearing that seems good still.   I found these pieces of what I think are bearing spacer chunks.    Here are pictures of the stator and the main shaft seal. I'm thinking I should go ahead and replace the main shaft seal while I'm at in here. I guess next I will be looking for the missing balls and spacers. I should pull the trap door and inspect inside.  | ||
| Bluzm2 |
By all means replace the seal! It's about $7 from the stealer and well worth it. Let me know if you need the seal installer, I'll loan you mine. Shoot me your address. Brad | ||
| Kalali |
Jim, how many miles did you have that oil in the primary to collect that much shavings and how did the shavings feel; coarse or really soft? I'm asking because I had some shavings on my plug after several thousands miles and they were really soft almost powdery to the touch. | ||
| Jim2 |
I don't know about miles between primary oil change. When I bought it, I did not change it right away. It wasn't until I had a loose starter that I went in and replaced gaskets and filled with fresh Mobile 1 V-twin synth. I had shavings on plug at that time but I assumed it was from too loose primary chain because the case had grooves from the primary chain. These shavings from the first time were not powdery if I remember correct. The shavings from the pictures above were definitely powdery. They seem to almost dissolve into nothing when wiping them off of the plug. My bearing problems are probably a result of overheating. Overheating due to running with low to no primary oil because of the loose starter resulting in leak. I don't know if the clutch spring plate and the bearing problems are related at all. I guess that pieces of bearing flying loose in my transmission may have jammed the gears and caused enough force on the spring plate to separate the rivets. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Now would be a good time to pull the trans and have the gears magnafluxed. If it was mine, I would send the trans to a good performance shop and have the gears back cut. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
If I were a loose ball bearing, I would try to get with those magnets in the alternator. See anything wedged between the magnets in the rotor? how many are missing? This is some really scary stuff! My X1 ate its "grenade plate" but all I had to do was clean the dead friction material out with solvent and Qtips. | ||
| Jim2 |
Fst1075 - I have to learn what magnaflux is. I'd love to back cut the gears. I'm tight on budget right now so I may have to wait. Any idea how much that costs? Natexlh1000 - I don't think that any of the balls left the bearing, just ALL of the spacers that were between them. I've recovered approximately two of them. I did find a couple of tiny pieces in the magnets in the rotor. I'm hoping to find more spacers when I open the trap door.  My shifter forks are a bronze/gold color. I thought I've seen a lot of pictures of these being silver color. | ||
| Jim2 |
BluzM2 - generous offer, I've sent you a PM. Thank You. | ||
| Jim2 |
I'm having a @!%&^ of time getting out that old main shaft oil seal. Am I supposed to be using heat and/or cold?  | ||
| Xl1200r |
how many miles before i need to worry about this grenade plate? | ||
| Jim2 |
Bloody knuckles. I finally got the seal off. You know that song, "Gonna try with a little help from my friends". I talked to Lafeyette and he was very encouraging when I really needed it. He said, "It'll come out", over and over. "It won't be easy but it'll come out. Just don't lose your cool and do anything stupid. It'll come out". LOL. Thanks Lafeyette! It came out. Did I mention the bloody knuckles? Xl1200r - There is no set time. Could last 50,000 or go at 18,000 like mine did. I really didn't HAVE to replace the main shaft oil seal, I just figured that while I'm in there I would do it since there has been a couple of teaspoons full of oil on my hugger every once in awhile. I'm curious to see if it stops doing that now with the new seal. | ||
| Preybird1 |
I would send the whole tranny to zippers and have them back cut your gears and get a billet trap door. I had a full race application tranny rebuild done by zippers. It wasn't cheap but it is so awesome, I still can't believe how sweet this thing shifts now! | ||
| Devil_car |
I keep putting off the grenade plate removal thinking that I'll be ok a little longer, but during my last primary oil change, I saw more metal than I like... (I know, I know, I should just take it apart and check) Now with Jim's pictures, I'm getting pretty scared. What a shock to see that the ball bearings are missing! In my opinion, you got lucky, as this could have been a whole lot worse! | ||
| Preybird1 |
I don't understand where they (the bearings) went? When i had my tranny beefed up. I had a barnett race clutch installed. (the extra plate kit) | ||
| Jim2 |
I'm back on the road again.  All of the needle bearings were fine. Only the one bearing missing all of the spacers needed to be replaced but I replaced both of them in the trap door. I managed to find all of the missing spacers. They were stuck behind the destroyed bearings outer race. The shift drum where the center fork sits had a raised edge where the shift fork pin rides. You couldn't really see it but the fork wouldn't slide off or back on. 1I had to file it a little and polish with emery cloth. I cleaned up the pawl a bit but it didn't look bad. I installed a new Energy One BTX-11 extra plate clutch kit with 15% stronger spring. Energy one doesn't recommend using synthetic oil in the primary so I switched to Rotella T 15W-40. So far so good and it's real cheap. Runs like stink and shifts like butter. Now if I could find out what that extra spacer is? It's not in the parts manual and not in any of my 100's of pictures I took. It fit's on the thin end of the clutch basket shaft but I already have the spring washer with "OUT" printed on it behind that clutch nut. It didn't fit on the other parts of the transmission shafts and isn't in my pictures. I does fit on the main sprocket shaft but the book doesn't show it. Is there a spacer/washer that goes on the main primary sprocket between the stator cover and the nut? I hope so because I put it there and tightened to 240 ft-lbs. There's always one mystery part! So far I'm loving the new clutch and glad to be back on my bike  A special thanks to BluzM2, Buellistic, and DrAwkward who helped with tools, advice and encouragement. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Jim, There isn't a washer on the rotor, just the flanged nut. Could it be the washer that goes on the clutch adjusting nut? The top hat shapped nut that threads on the clutch pull off bearing. The "nut" should have a washer on it.. Brad | ||
| Jim2 |
The first thing you see when you pull off the clutch inspection cover and look at the center of the hub is: 36715-94 SPRING, clutch adjuctment followed by 36802-84B LOCKPLATE, well type then the top hat shapped nut 11730A WELL NUT that fits into the recess in the clutch ramp assembly. The ramp assembly goes over the ADJUSTMENT SCREW that fits against the RELEASE PLATE. The RELEASE PLATE has the two tabs that fit into the CLUTCH HUB. Under the release plate is: 37495-91 NUT, mainshaft Under that is the spring washer I mentioned 37870-91 SPRING WASHER I have all of this so where is my extra spacer/washer supposed to go? However, if there is no washer on the rotor I'd better go back in and get this mystery spacer/washer out of there. I'd sure like to know where it belongs when I go back in.  The bike is performing great though. | ||
| The4ork |
what exactly is the grenade plate? i have my primary off and am trying to replace my sprocket and chain. what else should i check while im in there? and what does back cutting the gears do? and how does it work? | ||
| Jim2 |
Look at the pictures in above. The grenade plate is also called the spring plate. It goes in the middle of the clutch pack of friction plates and steel plates. The rivets can wear and let go allowing the spring steel pieces to come loose. It is recommended to replace the spring plate with two extra steel and one extra fiber plates before you have a problem like I did. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Jim, your right. Let me look at my parts list... |
