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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through April 15, 2010 » 99 X1 After TPS Reset runs fine then 30 miles later trouble « Previous Next »

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Rh1999_20
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I recently bough a 99 X1 with many modifications. Ran great for the first 30 miles then all of the sudden it started cutting out and backfiring, but if you pull in the clutch it revs fine. So I limped her home and pulled the plugs and they were as black as could be. Changed the plugs and same deal, within 2 minutes they were completely filed as well. Took the bike to the local dealer, they couldn't find any problems(everything checked out on the computer) They did a TPS reset and installed new plugs. Tried the bike out yesterday and it ran beautifully. About 30 miles into the ride it was like someone flipped a switch and back to the same old cutting out and running terrible, won't even rev over 5K. But if you pull in the clutch it revs just fine. Once again I limped her home and pulled the plugs and they were pure black again. Any ideas? I do have an ecmspy cable coming this week but am not exactly sure what the problem is. I live in central pa and love the bike, just want to get it fixed soon... The weather is getting nicer!!!
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Here's the bike

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Akbuell
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

First guess is a bad engine temp sensor. They can fail without throwing a code, and if yours is original equipment, it is old enough to cause issues. If the temp sensor goes out of calibration, the ECU still thinks the engine is cold, so goes to a rich mixture; hence the fouled plugs. Assuming good (fresh) fuel, and everything else is OK. Might also check for chaffing of the wire from the intake air sensor. Mine was rubbing against the head, just behind the airbox. Places to start, anyway. Hope all this helps, Dave

P.S. Don't be afraid to call Al at American Sport Bike. He will have what you need on the shelf ......
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Kalali
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You mentioned "many modifications". It would help greatly if you listed exactly what they are. There are a lot of folks here (including me with a '00 X1) who have all kinds of aftermarket stuff on the bike and maybe able to point you in the right direction. If it were me, I would wait to get the ECMSPY running just so you can see the codes and other important information before throwing $/parts at the bike. For example, I find it strange that the bike ran "beautifully" after a TPS reset and then started crapping out. Or it revs fine after you pull-in the clutch. There are a lot of stuff at play trying to follow through just those two conditions...
Take your time and get it right. When you do, you'll be amazed how awesome and responsive these bikes are.. Worth the patience.
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Mods are as follows:
Nallin racing stage 2 heads
Cometic gaskets
Total seal rings
Hurricane dome pistons
Screamin eagle .536 cams
Forcewinder intake
Nallin racing reworked force street fighter 1pc header/exhaust system
Buell race ecu
Hayden (automatic) m-6 primary chain tensioner
I'm sure that there are some more... I will update as soon as I can get a list of everything.
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Mmmi_grad
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ak is right, Make sure the person who did the TPS actually checked the bike temp and did it at the right temps. The bike has to be over a cetain temp before TPS reset should be done. Also temp sensor must be STEADY. If erratic, its junk.

If dealer is OUT of SENSOR
THEn you DOWN. Doing a TPS reset on an erratic temp sensor or at wrong temp will cause strangerunning and will foul plugs.....strand you.
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Tom_b
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Typical of an improper TPS reset. Did mine 3 times before i actually read the manual and did it right. Also reset the AFV. If not throwing any codes one of these two are the problem, or a bad engine temp sensor.
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Kalali
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

A faulty engine temp sensor will definitely "confuse" the ECM and to some extent does explain some of your symptoms. For example, you are OK when the bike is cold but as the bike warms up, e.g., 30 miles into the ride, the sensor will give wrong info to the ECM and it craps out. But your clutch/rev issue seems unrelated to the sensor and may be a bad clutch safety switch or bad ground, etc.
But to be honest, I don't see how a TPS reset could depend on the engine temperature. TPS reset only tells the ECM the point where the throttle is fully closed, e.g., 0 degree TP, regardless of the engine temperature. Adjusting the proper idle (after TPS reset) does however require the bike as close as possible to normal operating temperature.
Now setting cold vs. warm (steady) idle is a whole different challenge.
Maybe someone could provide an explanation to the contrary.
BTW, it sounds like you got a lot of great mods on that bike and your fuel/timing maps need to account for all that extra air/fuel.
Keep us posted.
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Oldog
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

URGENT
REMOVE HAYDEN TENSIONER FROM PRIMARY!
ITEM REVIEWED HERE IN KV BY ARRON WILSON
GRENADE LIKELY

check all sensors and re-check work ECM SPY and a cable are good to have.
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Bluzm2
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I sencod Olddog.
They are JUNK!
I just removed one from a 96 S2 last week, it was close to failure.
That makes #3 that I have personally see that were bad.

While you are in there replacing the tensioner, also replace the crank seal. If it's not leaking yet, it will be.
About $25 for the tensioner and nut, $9 or so for the crank seal, figure about $25 for the new primary gasket.

Very cheap insurance.

Brad
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Preybird1
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My o2 sensor shorted out and would do this exact same thing when the bike tried to go into open loop mode.

O2 sensor #12014 bosh available at napa, checker, auto zone.
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Preybird1
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 05:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

This might sound weird but pop off the seat and smell the ecm?? If it smells burnt it is shorting out. I had a o2 sensor come loose from the header and it shorted the o2 pins on the ECM and would work fine then it would go nuts all of a sudden. I switched it and the o2 sensor and have had no problems.
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 05:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I want to thank everyone for the help. I got the ecmspy setup and cable last night. I'm going to hook it up this evening and see what I can come up with. I will let you know what I find.
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ok,
Hooked up the ECMSpy last night. AFV was 150%, so I reset the AFV and the bike started and ran just fine. Hooked up the ECMSpy after work today just to check everything before I went for a little ride. Everything again was fine, rode the bike for 2 miles and it started acting up again. So I got it back home ASAP, hooked up the computer and the AFV is back to 147%. Shut the bike off for a minute and checked for trouble codes. O2 sensor is alway running lean. Cleared the code and started the bike back up... again, running really bad... so while it was still running and hooked up to the computer I did an on the fly reset of the AFV back to 100% and it was an instantaneous improvement. So something keeps changing my AFV value. Also as a side note one of the trouble codes in the history mentioned air intake temperature sensor short. That code has not reappeared, however I'm going to run the bike again and see what pops up this time. I did remeber to do some datalogging when the bike was in the garage and running fine and when I got it back home when it was running very bad... I didn't get more than a couple of minutes but I'm going to look at that information as well. Any suggestions??
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Davefl
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I think I would check for intake leaks. Intake seals are known for going bad.
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Preybird1
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

intake seals as a rule of thumb should be changed every 2 yrs. I did mine a couple weeks ago, Not a hard job but an annoying one. I only did mine because i had the intake out and disassembled,why not?


That code could be a sensor going out......But when i have seen this code it was my own doing, I had unplugged the sensor to install a new intake while the battery was still connected.
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Yo_barry
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 01:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Engine temp sensor bad or wires to it are shorted.

Doesn't throw a code.

Trust me on this...
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Kalali
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The first thing I'd do is replace the O2 sensor, Bosch 12014. Run the bike and check the AFV again. If you still get an AFV=150 then you are running super lean and are risking serious damage to the motor. What is your engine/oil temp after a good long ride?
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The engine temp is rising steadily after startup. Takes a little while to get up to 160deg. However it seems to run about 150 to 180deg celcius. There doesn't seem to be any erratic movement. You said if the AFV is 150 then I'm running extremely lean, but this is when the bike runs really bad. Black smoke out of the exhaust and constantly filing plugs.
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Tom_b
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Your o2 sensor needs to be removed from the bike to be properly diagnosed. It will not give a proper reading till it hits about 600 degrees f. Running the bike at idle will never get the o2 sensor temp up high enough. This page explains how to testit http://www.saintjohn.nbcc.nb.ca/marriott/x1/index. htm
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Firemanjim
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 01:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Your AFV is 150 because you are lean in the learned fuel area of map--really a very small area on an X-1, and that is causing changes to the ENTIRE map so it is adding fuel everywhere at 1.5 times the norm. So it is fouling plugs because it is too rich somewhere in the map that is not in the learn area.Check for intake leaks, make sure your vacuum port on bottom of throttle body is capped--I see about 75% of these bikes come in with it open-- and replace the engine temp sensor. They are a known failure point with these bikes and cost is cheap. Then be aware that your pipe of choice is a BITCH to tune properly.Too open.
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Id073897
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 01:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Did anyone of you watch the logs? Apparently not. Then the reason for the high AFV is obvious and has nothing to do with the bike running lean or with the pipe or intake seals or whatever.
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Kalali
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 06:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Gunter, not sure I understand your comment. I don't think he did any datalogging.
And Firemanjim explained it perfectly,
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 08:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I did do some datalogging and Gunter asked me to send it to him. My O2 sensor is reading really low at times (.19) and it is reading the same with the bike off. I did some checking on the O2 sensor per Gunter's recommendations. From the #2 pin on the black ecm connector to ground = .7 ohms, from the #11 pin on the black ecm connector to ground = .5 ohms, from the o2 case to ground = .2 ohms, O2 wire itself grey plug pin #4 to O2 sensor plug = .0 ohms. I did check the headers for tightness, sprayed some wd-40 on the intake gaskets, I'm thinking that I have a short somewhere. I did order an engine temp sensor and will replace that as well.
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

my log files are too big to upload... If anyone else would like to see them, send me a message so that I can e-mail them to you! Thanks again for everyone helping me try to figure this out!
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Rh1999_20
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ok, I think the problem is fixed. Talked to the guy I just bought it from and he told me that he replaced the O2 sensor last year, but hasn't rode it since. He said the old sensor was in the box of spare parts that he gave me. I got the old sensor out of the box, it was in the original packaging for the new sensor. The p/n on the packaging was S0130.02A8, which appears to be an O2 sensor for an newer XB. I re-installed the old O2 sensor and everything seems to be working just fine. I'm going to go for a longer ride today to verify, but it is definately running better. Again, THANK YOU for the help.
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Kalali
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 07:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Glad to hear.
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Road_thing
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Proving, once again, that when you have a problem, look at the last things that got worked on before the problem started!

rt
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