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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through February 08, 2010 » X1 dies when battery disconnected « Previous Next »

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Goldtooth
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

been trying to ride a bit and starts fine (been keeping it on the charger) and went up to Lowes about 20 minutes away. Got out started fine and rode home about 30 minutes. Pulled in the driveway and shut it off and opened the garage door. Went to start it and nothing, battery barely turned over. Pushed it in and checked the voltage. 11.8v just sitting there. Charged it and started it and then disco'd the battery to check and it immediately died. Any ideas? Regulator? Stator?
nate
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Brinnutz
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 07:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You gotta check the voltage while the bike is running across the terminals, battery connected.

So, are you leaving the bike running when you go to disconnect it? I'm a little confused.
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Xl1200r
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well, you have two issues working here.

The first is easy - the bike, at least as far as I'm aware, won't run with the battery disconnected as it's in the middle of the charging system. Even though the bike makes enough power on it's own to run itself, that power is used to charge the battery and then the ignition (and lights and ecm, etc) all pull their power from the battery. Bottom line, this is normal.

Now - as to it not starting in the driveway. 11.8 volts should turn the motor problem. I think anything below 11.4 volts is considered a bad battery (needing charged or replaced), but this is going off memory based on a machine that gave a pass/fail result, so I could be wrong. I would guess that you either had dirty or loose terminals. Make sure those are clean and tight and then work from there.
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Goldtooth
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

mmm... discoing the battery in a car is a good way to tell if the alternator is charging. not the same on the bike?
doesn't seem like it is charging. if i charge it, the battery holds the charge in the garage. it is when i ride it that is seems to drain it, hence no charge.
i tested the stator and it checks out. so far it seems like the voltage regulator is not checking out thought i don't have a trouble light to check it like the manual says. i did check the terminals coming from the VR to the stator and one has 7V on it and one is 0 V, like i think it should.
nate
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Brinnutz
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Take a tester, turn to Ohms, unplug VR connector under cam case and undo a couple zip ties. Check the resistance.

See if it's in FSM specs or not.
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Goldtooth
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My manual does not state a resistance check for the VR. Do you know what it is? It only has draw tests and the trouble light test. The ground is good and has great continuity.
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Brinnutz
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The FSM does have the VR resistance tolerances.

I don't know what page, and I'm no where near mine (140 miles away lol).

Anyways, it should be up front in the 1- section somewhere IIRC.
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Goldtooth
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

i can't find it in my service manual. anyone know what the resistance should be? don't really want to spend the $100 unless i know it's bad.
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Brinnutz
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Use the index or table of contents if no one can post up. That's how I found it in my FSM when I had to figure out wtf was wrong with my charging system.
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Goldtooth
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

yeah tried that. guess i will just order one on monday.
nate
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Brinnutz
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Someone will post, I'm on base and no where new my garage.

Dude, try checking in the S1 online manual...Might be there?
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Nallac
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 01:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just checked my manual and can't find what the resistance should be either?.Must be the same as yours....shows only the same tests as yours Goldtooth.
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Akbuell
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 09:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Before you get too involved, charge the battery, start the bike, and put your voltmeter across the battery terminals. At 2-2.5k RPM, you should see 13.5-14V at the battery terminals. If so, the charging system is fine, and the battery or cables/connections are suspect.

If not, see page 7-19 ( in my '01 X-1 manual), disconnect the voltage regulator from the stator, and connect your voltmeter (on the AC setting) to the wires from the stator. At 2k RPM, you should see 38-52v AC output. If so, the stator is fine, and the VR is probably the problem. A common issue is a bad ground on the VR. Certainly worth checking that, also.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Goldtooth
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

AK
did all that. no real charge at idle or 2K, stays at 11.8v.
the stator is putting out 52v ac at 2k so it checks out.
battery holds a charge when i charge it and was replaced 5 months ago. all the grounds have been gone through and cleaned reattached. this was done when i first got the bike.
sure looks like the VR.
gonna get one this week.
nate
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

BUELLers:

It never ceases to amaze me the problems(some are mystery types) to be had with the electrical system ...

Yet no one knows anything about preventive maintenance with this electrical system ???

Lets start with the BATTERY:

Batteries are not created equal as some will not last a 6 months, "BUT" some will last 4 years or more years ...

If you buy a 2 year warranty battery it should be replace at 2 1/2 years ...

"BUT" if you keep it on a trickle charger when not riding, 3 1/2 years is when to replace it ...

The best trickle charger to us is the BATTERY TENDER PLUS !!!

"i" use the BATTERY TENDER PLUS to trouble shoot my battery, as if it starts to take a extra long time to float the battery is an indication a battery replace in due !!!

You should check the tightness of the battery terminals every 5K miles ...

The wires where you check the alternator out put should be tie wrapped so they do not no the wiggle test while you are riding which eliminates mystery problems ...

"PLUS" any and all wires in the electrical system to stop mystery electrical problems ...

Properly adjusted primary chain(3/4 inch on the tight spot), proper oil level in transmission, and proper type oil in transmission ...

Good ground on your battery and voltage regulator plus tie wrap wires to lesson wire wiggle ...

This "INFO" works on you car too !!!

If you are willing to get that last electron out of a battery and are are not concerned with the big dollars to replace the voltage regulator, stator, and battery so be your choose ...

To me it is easier to replace batteries and have the money spent for satators/voltage regulators for gas money to ride with, plus avoid the pain of a weak battery and a no start in the middle of no where ...

The above works for me as "i" have a 108,822.1 miles as of the last ride and still running the OEM stator and voltage regulator that came with my 19997 S3T ...

"MAY THE LONG BLASTING BUELL BE WITH YOU !!!"
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Goldtooth
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

great info buellistic but unfortunately i did not own the bike before 14k miles and the battery was cooked at that point. might have been hard on the vr and that is why it went.
maybe you just got a good batch also....
i am a maintenance freak on my vehicles so i do know where you are coming from
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Skntpig
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I had a short on my VR where the wires rubbed the insulation off behind the battery. It was intermittent. I removed it and repaired the wire and haven't had a problem since.
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Goldtooth
Posted on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

thanks i will check!
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Andymnelson
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I could not find any resistance values in my manuals.

Here are the only helpful things I found in this sense:

Check for good ground to VR:




VR Bleed Test:




Otherwise the electrical troubleshooting page give a pretty good flow chart for what to look for.
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Goldtooth
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

yep, that is what i had. i ordered a new one yesterday so i should have it in a few days. i will update the thread after i test it.
thanks for the help
nate
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Buellistic
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 02:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

BUELLers:

"BEWARE OF A technician WITH A "TEST LITE" IN HAND !!!"

"BEWARE OF A technician WITH A d'Arsonval METER IN HAND !!!"

A real TECHNICIAN is in the ELECTRONICS job field and knows better and so does a real MECHANIC ...

All you should have in hand is a ELECTRONIC VOM(volt ohm meter) METER and a good cheap one can be found a Wal-Mart ...

The FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL does a fair job on trouble shooting, "BUT" AS ALWAYS THERE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT LEFT OUT BECAUSE THE WRITERS OF THE MANUAL FEEL YOU WERE BORN KNOWING SOME OF THIS STUFF ...

Looks like here again "i" am going to have to put something together to share with you'll as in HOW TOO, WHAT TO LOOK FOR, and REMEMBERING CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS WHEN WORKING WITH ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS ...

"MAY THE LONG LASTING BUELL BE WITH YOU !!!"
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Goldtooth
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

that's great buellistic and i did use my fluke multimeter to check the VR.

sorry if this offends you but i have a hard time reading your posts the way you write them with the caps and quotes. sorry.

i do appreciate the help from everyone.
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Buellistic
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Goldtooth:

No offense taken ...

If "i" do CAPS. and QUOTES it is only to make a point(ie: same as highlighting) ...

In BUELLing
LaFayette
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Goldtooth
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

cool....
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Goldtooth
Posted on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

still waiting on my VR. i made the mistake of ordering from www.ironmachine.com since the site said they had it in stock. just called, he said it is not in stock and might ship next week! wow, never will order from them again. i will stick with asb. my mistake.
nate
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Goldtooth
Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

just installed my new VR, but not from Ironmachine. Ended up buying it from Lake Shore Harley. Better service, faster delivery and it was cheaper! Only going there and American Sport Bike from now on.
The bike seems to charge like it should now, 12.3V sitting with 13.5 volts at idle and 14.1V at 2K.
I also checked the VR according to the manual and the new one does not show the 7V when it is disconnected from the stator. The old one did that.
Hopefully it is nice enough this weekend to ride and see how it does after repeated starts and shut offs.
nate

(Message edited by goldtooth on February 02, 2010)
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