| Author | Message | ||
     Pkforbes87 |
Well I learned in the hurricane oil filter thread that this is too much oil to be burning (news to me) so now I'm a little worried. I'll provide as much info about the circumstances as I can and hopefully some of you with more experience can give me some tips on what to look for to get my oil consumption down. I rebuilt the top end of this motor earlier this spring. Bought it after the PO dropped the front exhaust valve through the piston. It got a 1250 kit and 10.5 pistons, and rebuilt heads from a cyclone (99 model I think - they're old enough to have the head temp sensor next to the spark plug) Anyways.. the bottom end was gone through by a shop that I trust - cases split, cleaned, and everything was inspected closely for damage. Lifters were the only thing that needed replacing so I pulled some out of my 2000 X1 with 25k on them (looked brand new) and put the engine together. I broke it in IAW the manufacturer's directions.. heat cycling, under 3200 rpm for 500 miles.. the whole shebang. I changed the oil at 100 miles and found this:   I asked on a thread here if that was normal and a couple people said that it was acceptable for break-in so I kept on going. Changed oil again at 500, 1000, 2000, and every 2000 miles since - oil was still kinda dark at the 500 mile change, even better at 1000, and has looked good ever since. I've only used HD dino oil in her so far.. planned on going back to RP MaxCycle once I use up a case of the dino stuff. Well now she's got about 5k miles on the rebuild and is burning 1 quart every 1000 miles. I honestly don't know if that was happening during the first 1000 miles because I changed the oil so soon both times that I didn't even bother checking the level. Plus all of those first 1000 miles were in about a 10 day stretch where I was rushing to get her broken in and on my way to homecoming. About 3500 of her miles have been long distance interstate riding at 4000 rpm and I know that's when she burns the most, but some still disappears during slower riding as well. The only time she's really been ridden hard was at homecoming around the Kettle Moraine area because I simply don't have access to curves here in Oklahoma  So.. that's the story. Any ideas? Did I FUBAR the install? Has all of my long distance interstate riding prevented a proper break-in? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Forgot to mention that all of the oil lines were brand new, so none of the metal was left in them from when the motor blew. I cleaned out the tank as well as I could, and don't really think that much if any of that metal came from the tank either. | ||
| Buellistic |
IMHO, "i" question the metal "i" see in the oil filter ... Have a return line oil filter(pictures if you want them) so no metal goes back to the oil tank ... The reason for the RETURN LINE oil filter was to keep any metal from collecting in the oil tank and passing a second time through the oil pump which doubles the oil pump drag ... If you over fill you oil tank you will think you are using a lot of oil because the engine will dispose of the oil in its own way until it reaches the correct oil level(Checking Your Oil 101 if you want it)as far as your engine is concerned ... You did put valve guide oil seals on all the valve guides ??? Cut my RETURN LINE oil filter open after every oil change and have only found a little very fine metal in it over the years ... My engine has, as of the last ride 108,359.3 miles on it ... | ||
| Dpg |
Have you performed a compression and leak down test of the cylinders? I did the 1250 NHRS kit years ago and I learned that the Nikasyl (sp) cylinders break in differently than iron sleeved cylinders which NHRS sells in their less expensive kit. Some fine particles in the first few hundred miles is understandable after a rebuild. Losing oil after riding is also quite common. I check my level after every ride no matter what the mileage. With such a small system capacity you really need to keep tabs on it. Then again, you have 5I miles on it without any performance complaints right? Some would say "Just ride it!"  Safe ride, Gary in Oaktown | ||
| Sloppy |
Check your tranny oil level to make sure you don't have a bad seal that's letting the engine oil get to the tranny. Make sure you are measuring oil level consistently. To get an accurate and consistent level I'd suggest measureing it while the engine is idleing. You can use a metal ruler as a dip stick. As mentioned, the oil levels in the tank will move around, and for whatever reason, if the oil level is too high in the tank it will "disappear", while a low oil level in the tank "seems" to stay consistent. Low and high oil levels are a bit of a misnomer with dry sumped engines - as long as there is any oil in the tank it is getting to the engine. More oil gives a buffer for engine speed changes and is a "heat sink" to keep bulk oil temperatures lower. Before thinking you have a mechanical problem, make sure your measurements are accurate. | ||
| Is11b1p |
My bike does the same thing. I've had alot of upgrades done to the motor. I burn about a quart of oil every 1000 miles. I haven't found any leaks nor is it leaking into the primary. I just run it. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
200 lb front plug looks ok - a little soot 230 lb rear plug looks perfect I'm gonna keep riding the crap out of it. And occasionally add oil | ||
| Oldog |
top end sounds Good! crank seal would eventualy fill the gear case, 1 quart every 1000 miles , but no blue smoke, good compression, runs good. ride it.. oil losses possible leak out on ground leak to transmission / chain case burning in engine pumped out of breather rings and valve guide seals keep it out of the cylinder I am supprised that the readings front to back vary that much my motor late last year and about 185 psi on rear and 183 front.. lotsa carbon in my motor on tear down | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
yeah im not too crazy about the difference in the numbers, but both numbers are superb IMO so I'll just run it. From what I've read before, it seems to be pretty common for the front cylinder on a Buell not to seal as well because of the amount of torsion applied to the cylinder by a lot of weight hanging from the front head. It amazed me when I realized during my rebuild how much stress is actually applied to the front cylinder. It looks like there would be a LOT of force applied to that front motor mount during hard braking, hard acceleration, setting down a wheelie, pot holes, etc. I have been getting quite a bit from my catch can and that's probably where some of the oil is going. It holds 8 oz. IIRC, and I have to dump it every time i get fuel or it will get full enough to start blowing some out of the breather filter all over the engine. Usually 1-2 tablespoons of splooge comes out each time I get gas - it varies on how short/long my trips have been. It's worst when the majority of that tank was used riding to work and back since that's only a 3 mile trip for me, and the mornings are usually very foggy on my way home. I know 1-2 TBSPs per tank of fuel doesn't add up to 1 quart per 1k miles - especially considering that a lot of the splooge is water. Oh well, dunno where the rest of the oil is going but if she's not broke, I won't stress over fixing her. | ||
| Kalali |
Aren't 200 and 230 PSI a little too high? I thought "normal" compression was around 180-185 PSI. Is it because of your 1250 kit? Just wondering. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
180-185 I believe would be normal for a 10:1 engine. I just talked to the place where I got the 1250 kit and the guy said that 1qt/1k miles is average for a 10.5:1 engine as long as it's all coming through the breathers. The higher compression is going to make extra pressure somewhere, and as long as the rings keep sealing as well as they are it's gonna push splooge out of the breathers at a pretty good rate  | ||
| Rick_a |
I would consider that excessive. My first high compression top end with iron cylinders did that for about 5000 miles then would lose a minimal amount by the next 5000...so little that no oil had to be added. That's the way my Nikasil 1250 kit has been from the start. I don't know if it had a factor in it, but the first top end I broke in slowly; to the letter. The 1250 kit I just rode as normal...just no extended high RPM use, and frequent oil changes for the first 2500. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Sorry to hear about your issue, The only thing I can say you is that from i installed the 1250 kit iron lined cylinders W/10.5 pistons and Stage 1 head work from NRHS early this summer and ended up the break-in period, I put around 1.500 miles on it, ridden hard since. Changed oil/filter at 100 miles and then at 500 miles and from then up to now there is not any oil consumption (I hope it continue so). I use mineral oil Castrol 20w/50 Regards. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on August 15, 2009) | ||
| Fullauto |
I'd put a one way valve in your breather pipe and see what happens. Works for me. Negative crankcase pressure is good. | ||
| Buellistic |
XB rocker arm covers would be a good "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" ... A PCV VALVE in the TIMING PLUG HOLE("INFO" if you want it) will help ... | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
I've got XB rocker covers. That's why I was so surprised when the engine started puking just as much as it was in stock form with breathers routed from the heads. I guess the extra compression basically negated the effect of the XB rocker covers. As strong as this motor runs I really don't think there's a problem anywhere. Compression numbers are good, plugs look good. I mean the front cylinder isn't perfect, but it's definitely not bad enough for me to tear back into the motor right now. | ||
| Bigblock |
I'd run it, but keep an eye on it. If it gets any worse, do a thorough leak down test. Buellistic has some good ideas. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"A PCV VALVE in the TIMING PLUG HOLE" I'm very interested in this mod. Could you send me some information? is there actually something routed out of the timing plug hole? Pictures? Please email to pkforbes87@hotmail.com Thanks in advance. EDIT: Found some info here: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/11962.html?1018393759 Very interesting idea, and I'd like to see if/how it changes my oil losses through the breathers. I'm not really clear though on where this breather line from the timing plug is routed. Should it be routed into a T-fitting that joins the hoses from the top end? I would think that this would allow positive pressure on the top end to be equalized by negative pressure on the bottom end, and vice versa in different areas of each stroke.. Or should the timing plug breather be routed into it's own separate catch can? This could hopefully prevent some of the blowby that I'm currently getting, but if routed improperly I imagine could also prevent condensation from being allowed out of the oil. (Message edited by pkforbes87 on August 17, 2009) | ||
| Reepicheep |
What oil are you running? My XB burned a lot of oil when I ran Castrol Syntec 5w50. The Syntec 20w50 is much better, but I now have a sneaking suspicion that its still a bit "thinner" then a true full synthetic 20w50 like Mobil 1 VTwin. | ||
| Preybird1 |
I just checked mine today and am going through 1 qt every 2000+ miles. I also bought a HD temperature gauge oil cap So i can monitor the heat level also. The HD cap has a longer dip stick but the top mark is the same as the BUELLS cap mark is. | ||
| Kalali |
Prey, could you explain how you measure your oil "loss"? I changed my oil last weekend and did my best to "save" all the oil in a marked container but still lost some while taking the filter out. I am guessing I lost about a quart over 2500 mile oil change interval but it is only a guess. Thanks. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If you get desperate, you can always try an old trick (previously factory recommended at various times for Caterpillar diesels and small-block Chevy V-8's with high oil consumption): dump some Bon Ami powdered cleaner into the intake with the engine running. The idea is that the fine grit in the powder "laps" the rings and cylinders to improve the seal and reduce oil consumption. I suppose it'd be a really good idea to change the oil shortly afterwards. I sure wouldn't do it on a new engine, but before I tore the engine down to start over I'd give it a try. | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
The metal in the filter looks like case shavings. I would pull the cam cover and look for a cam lob hitting. As far as oil use, I would place a catch can on the breather lines to see if you got the old harley puke and spit.  | ||
| Preybird1 |
kalali I have a large Tupperware bottle that has oz marks on it and i use it to see exactly how much oil i am going through by recording the oz marks i use up. Also i watch the catch can now that i have installed it. I did notice that there is a small seep oil leak at the neutral indicator almost in the middle of case. It gets enough there it will leak down the back of the motor and drip. A trick i use is to take 1 liter pepsi bottle and cut the bottom out and cut in half leaving top intact and slip it under the filter and slide it up against the case. This keeps the oil off the bike! Also take the oil filter and punch holes in it to drain it and get as much oil out as you can, You would be surprised how much oil is trapped in the filter. I also have a drain pan with oz and qt marks for simple calculations of what amount is there at a glance. Now i am anal about the oil coming out of my bike and I will go as far as crank the motor a few times with no spark to get a little more oil out. | ||
| Kalali |
Thanks Prey. I'll use the bottle trick next time. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
"I will go as far as crank the motor a few times with no spark to get a little more oil out" I've considered doing this during an oil change before but would be too worried about a dry start afterwards. It's crazy how much oil is in the bottom of the case after removing the filter and draining the tank. It's got to be at least a quart. There's a drain plug for the oil in the bottom of the case, that I don't believe is shown anywhere in the FSM, but yet again I'm too afraid of a dry start to ever drain that much out. | ||
| Kalali |
"It's got to be at least a quart." So what would that mean in terms of engine oil capacity of 2.5 quarts during oil and filter change? If that is true, then you end up with 3.5 quarts in the motor... I drain the tank right after I turn the engine off to make sure oil does not have time to drain back down into the case but even then the 2.5 quarts puts the oil almost near the top line of the dip stick. I measure this after a good ride to make sure filter is full, etc. So I always end up taking a few ounces out to bring the level closer to the lower line. What does everybody else do to make sure not to end up with an over-fill condition?? | ||
| Blake |
A quart left in the crankcase? No way. Cranking the engine to expel the last bit of oil is a bad idea, a very bad idea. | ||
| Buellistic |
In the OLD IRON HEAD Sportsters had a crank case drain ... Which with the OEM Oil Pump(1/2 speed) allowed about 8 oz. of oil to remain in the bottom end ... What we did to get it to zero was to put in a KR Oil Pump(1/4 speed) ... The idea is to keep the flywheels out of the sump oil so you are not making oil air bubbles !!! | ||
| Jramsey |
"Crankin the engine to expel the last bit of oil is a bad idea". Blake, I know of one individual who is so anal about getting all the old oil out that when finishing the oil/filter change he pulls the return line off the oil tank fires the motor and waits a few seconds till the fresh oil has pushed all the old out is then shuts off the motor reconnects the line then tops off the oil tank. It's kinda overkill and messy. |
