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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Old School Buell » Archive through August 05, 2009 » Does anyone here have the same setup? « Previous Next »

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Buellisticx1
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 06:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

1999 X1, I'm Running with the following setup right now:

-1250 kit/hurricane forged pistons, 10:5:1 compression.
- Stage 1 porting heads.
- Race ECM.
- C.F. oval air cleaner from Al American Sport Bike.
- 2.5" Stock header and D&D muffler.

I finished the break in a while back and I put about 800 miles on the new engine.
I'm having some problems in the upper rpm (from 5.000 rpm onwards, in 5th gear ).

My bike is running fewer speed at high revs than it used to. It's sluggish in the upper rpm (from 5.000 rpms onwards) than it used to ends up being hard to get it up to 120 mph in 5th gear top end with no issues (full open throttle). I didn't even get near the rev limiter in 5th gear. Looks like the max power is coming in 5.000k and then falls sharply (from 5.000 rpm start to bog down). It's too much hard to achieve 5500 rpm. in 5th gear

Now the max speed in 5th gear and top end is 120 mph at 5.500 rpm and no more....Is this normal?......

When I was running with Race ECM/ D&D exhaust and oval air cleaner and engine stock I achieved 6.200 rpm/130 mph in top end 5th gear with no problems.

It runs great in lower and midrange and feel a solid increment in torque and power but not in top end (from 5k to onwards).

Now the bike is a torque monster but not at high speed.

Just wondering if the change could do it and going to need a custom fuel and timing mapping. Maybe need for fuel in top end fuel map, but I don't know....

I have ECMSPY software and I can try to add a small amount of fuel in top end area of the fuel map and also can to remove or add in timing advance tables but I'm not sure for this. What do you think about?

I'm bothered by this situation.
I really like this bike.

Thanks in advance for any help.

(Message edited by buellisticx1 on August 01, 2009)
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Kalali
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 07:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sorry I can't help with your question but how often do you ride the bike in those conditions? These bike are not known for their high speed/top end.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 08:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

What cams do you have? It's entirely possible that it's cammed for low end....
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Preybird1
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Call terry at JTS performance 1-707-996-6103 he is the ECM dyno king call and see what info he can give you.
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Cyclonecharlie
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Several things could cause this, first thing I would look at is too much adv. timing.Motor doesn't want to rev.when timing is too high.Mark your timing spot and retard it a couple of marks and make a run. If better great, if not, put it back where it was and look else where.
Could be too rich or lean....check your plugs.(I'm betting on the timing since you raised the compression...higher comp.requires less adv. timing)
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 01:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks for listening and suggesting folks!.
Kalali, I normally do not go at high speeds and that rpm range but I would like running fine throughout the rpm range.

Ratbuell, I'm running with stock cams (497)

Preybird1,
Dan from NRHS said me the race ecm should be fine since you are using the stock cams but I think I need a custom fuel and timing map. It will works better with a good fuel map, because the power is created also with fuel. I'll take into account Terry from JTS performance but I would have to send my ecm to him. Could you give me your email address to chating to him about my issue?
Do you know if I could loading the map with ECMSPY so could avoid having to send my ECM, I live in Spain and by here there is not too much knowledge about tuning buell's on a Dyno, just bikes Japanese although.

Cyclonecharlie,

The FI bikes are different than the carb bikes. The FI have programmed fuel and ignition mapping inside the ecm. Would have to bring the bike to a dynamometer. I could try to take out a couple of spark advance degrees between 5000 rpm to 7500 rpm with ECMSPY and see how it goes.


I will report you on my progress.

Once again thanks for the info

(Message edited by buellisticx1 on August 02, 2009)
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Kalali
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Be careful when playing with the timing maps. They need to be adjusted in conjucntion with the fuel maps and they also need to be checked while the motor in under load. It is best done on a dyno. Also keep a close eye on engine temperature. Just my 2 cents.
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

ok! kalali I will do.
Just noticed that my engine temperature is around 250 ºC.=482 ºF in a short ride (around 20 miles).

But this increase in operating temperature maybe related to the new engine and to summer heat (38 ºC= 100.4 ºF on here) I put around 800 miles on the new engine, or It maybe owing to advance timing?... What do you think about?

Regards.
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

BUELLers:

Cyclonecharlie and "i" probably the only ones that have ever mentioned "ENGINE TIMING" !!!

IF YOUR "TIMING" IS NOT SET CORRECTLY FOR YOUR ENGINE SET UP it will not run worth a "BUELLschitte" no mater how much "BIG DOLLAR" make it go parts you put in the engine ...
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buellistic, What do you mean? setting the cam position sensor timing or timing maps inside ecm?, because the sensor timing is centered with the timing mark inside the inspection hole. Any sensor timing deviation from dead center will adversely effect performance.

I don't understood you correctly.
Sorry for so many questions.
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buellisticx1:

"i" am referring to where the IGNITION fires the spark plug on the compression stroke "X" number of degrees Before Top Bead Center(TDC) ...

On my 1997 S3T there are two ways to set the timing ...

DYNAMIC TIMING - use a Timing Light(same as used on cars) ...

STATIC TIMING - The IGNITION MODULE has an LED to time the engine with ... "i" prefer this way and my BLAST also has the LED IGN.Module ... If you do not have the LED Module you are forced to do the DYNAMIC method ...

On FUEL INJECTED MODELS your TIMING is MAP'ed ...

A "GOOD DYNO MAN" can check your timing ...

If you have any more "QUESTIONS", feel free to ask ...
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Preybird1
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The biggest problem is the timing and it is the first thing i had set after the motor was built! The static timing was enough to get the bike to run but not correctly! I was unhappy with the motor build until i had it tuned correctly!

buellisticx1, I had my motor built by DAN at NRHS and then tuned by jts performance.

My build is very similar to yours except, I have 7mm stainless valves and .536 SE cams and a force winder intake with a super trap exhaust with 12 disks and an open end cap. I put 370 miles on the new motor in closed loop at 3200 rpm max. I never went into open loop and then JTS did some heat cycles and put over 400 miles on tuning and mapping it!
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Buellisticx1
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I also ordered the engine parts from Dan NRHS and shipped my heads to him for headwork I asked to Dan about the behavior issue of my bike and he said me "sounds like you are either having timing or fuel delivery problems. Do you have a dyno available to check any of this?. Without really knowing what is wrong I cannot say what you should do as it would just be a guess".

The main problem is that in Spain by here where I live there is not too much knowledge about tuning buell's on a Dyno, just bikes Japanese although. I have done several calls to tuning centers and all said me the same thing: "WHICH IS YOUR BIKE?.... it's a 1999 BUELL x1....WHAT?.... URRRRRRRRR....THEY HAVE NEVER DONE A TUNING TO BUELL BY HERE BUT THEY YES HAN DONE MANY MANY JAPANESE BIKES, AT LEAST AT THE MOMENT".

I'm really worried by this situation.

Some questions to you preybird1.

I did two alignment marks to sensor timing previous to take out it, and when the job was done then I put it in the same position to obtain the ignition timing correctly.

1.- Do you remember if you did move it to the right or to the left as for the timing mark inside the inspection hole, in order to set the static timing correctly?.

2.- before tuning and mapping, did you have high TPS and low rpm at idle?.

thank you very much for sharing your experience with me.

Regards.
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Preybird1
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I did not build this motor Dan did. you would have to ask him what he did. When i picked up the bike he said the tune wasn't that far off. But at low rpm when bike was hot i got pinging and the idle would not return to normal when coming to a stop it would idle for 2+ seconds and like i said above would ping horribly, I really didn't dare to go into open loop like this. Now as to the high tps yes. Also it was running rich in closed loop so it would be lean in top end which is bad. I had to buy new heads and cylinders and the 1250 kit and the motor work and labor to install it so it was expensive. So i was taking no chances and shipped the bike to JTS. Like you i was tired of hearing that they many (shops) could tune it but nobody could. They all wanted to "TRY IT" But not on my bike, If you have never done it your not using my bike as the guinea pig. As soon as you mention ecm spy or other program for tuning they are like what? we have never done it but we could --- it. The TPS was at 136 percent which is to high. I am at 5500 feet above sea level here and the bike was tuned at 15 feet above sea level. So it runs rich here at this altitude but it runs great, But another note, the static timing was also set at Colorado's altitude which is very similar to Utah. But then it was tuned so i don't know if it matters about altitude!
I didn't have DAN do it because it was a fresh build with no miles and i wasn't waiting in Colorado. I had to be to work so i drove straight up and straight back.
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