| Author | Message | ||
     Kalali |
Naustin, please let us know if that theory holds up.I thought the hole on the frame is 1/2" | ||
| Buelleaver |
I wonder how much damage is done to buell’s image every time a lurker comes here and reads Things like “if you don’t like working on bikes you shouldn’t have bought a Buell“ ? Or if you don’t like this or that, shouldn’t of bought it. Just sell it . That really isn’t very much of a argument one way or the other, is it? | ||
| Naustin |
Kalali, A couple people have already done it over in the Thumper Forum... The Blast has different bolts than the tubers. Its true, on your X1, you'd have to ream the center sleave to fit the bolt though the -79D isolator. The 16207-79D part is a Lord mount rather than a Barry - and feels and appears much more durable. The L0501.2 part has softer rubber that has a seam around it on the latitudinal plane. This is where the problems always start. My Blast's current isolator (less than 1K miles on the part) is separated along that seam for 270 degrees of the circumference. Once the separation goes all the way around, it won't be long and the center sleave will rip out. Once that happens, the head bolts will sheer off in short order - that is unless the bracket snaps first. The first thing I noticed about the -79D Lord isolator is that there is no latitudinal seam. It is constructed completely differently, though very similar in overall size, shape and dimension. (Message edited by naustin on July 14, 2009) | ||
| Drhacknstine |
Ah, if they come to the Old School section they are contemplating a TUBER. So other than lowering our own resale value, No harm.  | ||
| Naustin |
Oh, and Court - Al Lighton knows about the Front Isolator Problem - even has a warning on his website... | ||
| Skntpig |
Buelleaver you are right. I was a lurker for 10 full years while owning my Buell before my first post. It sux that stuff like this will send some prospective buyers elsewhere. I learned a ton while just searching here. I only started posting once I realized I learned I could help others based on my trial and error experiences. You should buy a 94 Honda 900 RR. Good luck finding a good 16 inch race comp front tire. Honda won't replace your front wheel with a 17 even though they decided to go with the flow shortly afterwards to match the 17' rear they always had. Of course it's frustrating. Do a Google search for Cadillac CTS-V "wheelhop", or "axle tramp" or "broken diff". How about making a flagship 4 year run of 4000 lb, 400 HP, 400 lbs tq, 6 speed MTs that grenade rear ends when you spin the tires for 2 seconds. A Bulletproof Z06 drivetrian with great handling but too bad you can't use the throttle. You can get an aftermarket rear end for $9,000 or new axles (that hop but don't break) for $1,600 plus install. I'll feather the throttle and still run low 13's in my DD with a grin. Caddy figured it out and now puts different sized axles in both sides of the ZR-1 and the CTS-V but I haven't seen new ones in the mail or available other than in the aftermarket. I see the frustration but personally I love the frame, persona, handling, and don't mind the maintenance of my S1. I took my original ISO out around 20K and it looked new. My newer version looks slightly cracked after a few K miles. Maybe I will put the old one back in. I can't think of 2 new bikes I would trade for mine. Drilling the center doesn't seem so bad even if you have to pay a machinist a hot $20 bill. ***End of rant*** Yeah ISOs suk Sorry Court, I forgot this question was for you. (Message edited by skntpig on July 14, 2009) | ||
| Easy_rider |
Loren, Thanks for the grin.... and the advice. I expect I'll give it a shot and hope for the best.... and rest a little easier knowing that at least I'm not the only one who thought I should try it. Naustin, thought about that after my first post. Glad you got that added in. I'm sure this situation puts Al in a spot, and I hate to see it happen to a niche supplier. I guess overcoming problems like these are what makes small business ownership rewarding.  | ||
| Blackm2 |
Granted, I've only had to replace mine once so far @ 22,000 miles. I've got over 25,000 on it now with the L0501.2, no tears. If it is consistently happening to certain peoples bikes, I have to think there is something else wrong, as in tie bar adjustment, or swingarm isolators? You have to remember though, these are high torque motors, and most of us use them as such. I have owned a big block Dodge Challenger for nearly 30 years, I can't tell you how many left side motor mounts I've bought for that car. Finally an aftermarket company stepped up and made the left mount for these cars with a beveled bolt through the center so it can't tear the rubber mount in half. All in all, it isn't a difficult thing to do. I spend more time cleaning my bike sometimes than I did changing that mount. | ||
| Dpg |
While I whole heartedly believe in the Buell marque, they are still a business. There can be thousands of isolator failures and as long as there haven't been a bunch of physical injuries or fatalities Buell will more than likely go the route of most vehicle manufacturers in that a fix doesn't come to pass until there is a lawsuit. When my two head mount bolts snapped off it could have caused the oil filter to rupture which might have put me into a center divider or car. THAT would have brought a lawsuit. Once the factory acknowledges that there is a design flaw in either the isolator/mount/bolts or front iso design (non-alignment of head boss and vertical bolt perhaps) we won't be hearing of any fix. If we chose to experiment with non-stock or modified stock parts we take on the liability. We should keep this in mind when advising others to modify factory parts in the hopes of finding a fix without the input of the Buell engineers. Safe ride, Gary in Oaktown | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
Look, I have no problem tearing into my Buell. I just did the oil pump up grade w/ the bronze gear and for $hits and giggles I threw on some hi ratio roller rockers! But if I have a chance to reach out to a person inside Buell (COURT) I'm going to do it. When it come too a wear item there is no reason we are left out! It's not like Buell went under But any thoughts of me buying an XB is long gone! The stupid fact is Buell can make a buck selling this stuff just like HD with their crappy design screw ups  | ||
| Skntpig |
Design flaws are tough for a manufacturer to deal with. My car has been through 2 driver side and one passenger side motor mounts in <20,000 miles. Within 1,200 miles there were 4 failures on the same interior trim piece because I ride with the windows down. Guess you're not supposed to do that. There are very few of them that haven't had the differential replaced under warranty. Many of them multiple times. Shifter bushings suck too. Unfortunately once the warranty is up you are S.O.L. There are many entreprenuers and backyard inventors that make motor mounts. I asked the service writer why these don't get redesigned updated parts to stop pretty serious failures. He said its down to dollars. To order a few hundred thousand more of the same part and pay the labor to install is much less than the R&D on a now obsolete car. There's a rapidly sloping curve of time when the owners will be out of warranty and on their own. Temporary band-ade policy. In the case of tubers, it's a obsolete design and is 2 generations down with limited production numbers. I wonder how many Hondas were produced during the run of Buells. I would guess at 100 times the count. I can assure you Buell learned from the triumphs and the design of the XBs and 1125s are better because of the lumps and bumps too. This is a good thread. I'm not saying "Oh just live with it". I would like to find a solution. Maybe together we all can fix it. If we come up with a good design that's strong and vibration resistant, I bet I can get it produced inexpensively... | ||
| Naustin |
I don't think its a design flaw. I think its a manufacturing defect attributable to the supplier of the "Barry" mount (L0501.2). When the Tube Frames were in production, these parts were holding up better. Now, the twice superceded part is not up to the job. Something has changed. Buell should recognize the problem, not with the Tube Frame design, but with a Part that is sitting, new, in inventory and pull it off the shelves. Of course, that would mean there would be no factory front isolator available for the old Tubers - though, the Blast can use the new Harley 16207-79D part (apparently? - the long term effects of this stiffer isolator on the rest of the engine mounting system are as yet unknown.) How hard is it to issue a TSB and advise that the -79D part go in all Blasts, and old Tube Frame buells - and package up a new bolt kit for older tubers so owners don't have to ream the -79D part? I guess somebody at the factory would have to make the modification on a Tube Frame bike and a Blast and then put a quick 15,000 miles on each of them to make sure nothing unexpected goes wrong - but, afaik, for a company that hosts homecoming events like it does, and claims to be the best motorcycle company in the world in terms of customer support, this should be a no brainer. Hire a damn intern to ride laps around Wisconsin for 8.00/hr. Court? You've done this before right? Maybe the bean-counters have Erik by the balls? I still want to know what isolator new blasts are getting on the production floor at the factory. If they are using the same defective parts, they'll be doing a lot of warranty work. No, then again, the dealers would never diagnose the problem and a new, inexperienced owner might not notice it. By the time the blast has 1,000 miles on it, the warranty will probably be over... Sad. (Message edited by naustin on July 14, 2009) | ||
| Riviera |
When you issue a retrofit and/or a TSB you're admitting a fault to the original design. That shifts the liability to the manufacturer as opposed to the end-user. Liability costs money. In court, the current woes can be attributed to unintended use/operator abuse. Could the lower mounting points on the front of the engine case, where the exhaust and shock mounts are attached, somehow be connected with a bracket/mount to the upper mounting points on the head? While this wouldn't cure the isolator failure issue, wouldn't it at least prevent the greater damage to the mounting bosses on the head? | ||
| Skntpig |
I think you are right, and I take it back that it is a design flaw in the bike. It seems like the new material Barry is using is softer. Maybe it's softer to reduce broken mounts and headbolts so now the wear goes to the now consumable iso. I broke the mounting orifice right out of the head with my harder, original, good at 25,000+ mile iso. I had it welded and re-tapped and installed the new softer iso with a NHRS mount. I would rather just replace the isolator every so often. It just seems like there's a ton of pressure on that small piece. Especially when ridden like a hooligan. | ||
| Easy_rider |
I did a little poking around. There's a Barry Controls in Minnesota. I'll try to ping them from home to see if they supply these parts. Even if formal change doesn't occur, it will ensure that the responsible parties are aware that there's a perception of a problem. | ||
| Gowindward |
Barry Controls 82 South Street Hopkinton, Ma. 01748 www.barrycontrols.com www.barrycontrols.com/defenseandindustrial/product selectionguide/data/BondedTubeMounts.aspx | ||
| Easy_rider |
Very nice, Loren That's the website I was at last, but I didn't make it to the actual part. They don't have a "contact us" link but they do have a request for information form that I thought I'd abuse. I saw the Minnesota reference in an earlier search. A subdivision perhaps? It didn't supply a link, though, so this is the one to use. | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
Skntpig, I hear ya. My SS Silverado has a rattle in the steering shaft and the dealer just slobbers it with grease so it don't tap against the side of the housing. I don't want a recall or a tSB. I just want a mount that is just as reliable as the original. Now COURTS name is all over this thread and he only posted once. Buell will end up like Indian...No factory support...No customers  | ||
| Easy_rider |
I don't know any particulars, but I believe Court has an S2 in some stage of rebuild. I'm guessing he's got a new isolator and may find himself more interested at a later date. Court's a valuable voice for the everyday riders. We won't always be able to get the response we want from him, nor should we count on it. I feel your frustration, though! For now, I think I'll buy a D to have as a backup. The S3 is overdue for a new one, anyway. | ||
| Sloppy |
Great find. This one: http://www.barrycontrols.com/defenseandindustrial/ productselectionguide/data/productSeries-1f9f2aba- 10a4-4c10-85cd-e8a68653f576.aspx Model 508 looks VERY similar to the -79D but with a 1/2" hole... perhaps the solution is already there... | ||
| Phelan |
So who wants to order one and try it out?  any takers? | ||
| F_skinner |
(Message edited by f_skinner on July 15, 2009) | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
Fskinner, hope you enjoyed the ride. I don't know about that Buell Cool Aid your drinking but it sounds personal. I'm sure Buell will do fine with or without me. IMO | ||
| Gowindward |
"Hugie03flhr, I guess I do not understand your frustration. Are you worried about an Isolator you have never replaced or the isolator on the Uly that you do not own? " Frank, makes a very valid point. As for the Barry 508...The 508 IIRC has a wider mounting hole spacing. Oldog and I did a lot of digging a while back. Not much luck other than the -79D and the DS part. The 508 IIRC has a wider mounting hole spacing. As for me and my S3T I ordered a billet mount from Dan (return Karma for the awesome S2 door prize) and bolts from Joanne. If the DS iso is still alive I will keep using it or replace with another DS part. Already planning a trip to Arkansas....It's all good! | ||
| Kalali |
"Model 508 looks VERY similar to the -79D but with a 1/2" hole... perhaps the solution is already there" Those of you guys who have an ISO on the bench, do the dimensions match the 508? If so I will be happy to order one from Barry but I wonder if they sell retail. If not, we could do a group buy. | ||
| Kalali |
I just sent them an e-mail inquiring about the 508, e.g., price per unit, minimum quantity, etc. | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
OK, here is the point... I have a tuber that will need an isolator. If I cannot get a good quality iso from the motorcycle company than I cannot ride that companies product and I have an unreliable junk in my driveway. Since I was going to buy an Ulysses my point being the Uly XB has the same inherent problem (Are you getting this so far?) So if we follow passed history in 5 years XB Buell owners are going to be jury rigging mounts and rolling the dice on reliability, because of a consumable that is not be reproduced! What if it was a clutch pack not being available. Then what would you guys say??? "OOOHHHh are you worried about a clutch that didn't go" BUT IT WILL! Then what. Same principle Now do you guys get it? | ||
| Gowindward |
Kalali, Been there...it doesn't fit. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/476 23/442416.html#POST1399359 I would guess the they (Barry) is not going to step outside of their OEM/vendor relationship with Buell and recommend something different. Having walked in engineering shoes for the last 20 years (OMG I'm getting old) I would wager that this problems is known and being worked on by the right people at Buell and Barry. | ||
| F_skinner |
(Message edited by f_skinner on July 15, 2009) | ||
| Blackm2 |
I spoke too soon. I went for a ride this afternoon, noticed excessive vibration. When I got home, my L0501.2 with about 3500 miles on it is split. You guys are jinxing the tubers man! |
