| Author | Message | ||
     Oldog |
this was to be attached to the front iso thread on as its related, face it a broken bike sucks! Sunday was my turn AGAIN!  I found the bolt missing on the left side as AL has told me on two ocasions this is part of the pattern when the failures start  The unbroken bolt mount "fretted" on the still attached arm, the unbolted side was much worse  from a different angle  | ||
| Lowroad |
yuk.  | ||
| Oldog |
the damage to the pad on the left side is worse I cautiously filed the surface as flat as I could get it the lower area is undamaged I suspect as the bolt fails the motor tipes/twists down /forward damaging the top of the mounting pad, look at the mount pics the metal appears to have rubbed off of the cast mount to the head.  I have 2 choices 1 pull the head or 2 drill it in place.  I had to clear the path for working, if the other one is to be extracted add the right fork leg to the removal list. | ||
| Oldog |
After removal of the wheel and fender I layed out the drill spot and punched it for the first drilling, this project is a NO BEER, all day take your time and be well rested kinda deal.  Black sharpie works ok for layout  make sure that the center punch is sharpened and concentric, a fat guy getting down here to work is not fun..  carefully drill the first hole about the same size as the punch mark check the angle in all directions get this wrong, stop and pull the head and go to a machine shop, TAKE YOUR TIME! I drilled and stopped frequently (break the chip ) drilling through the bolt, if you try to blast through you will likely break the bit. I used this  | ||
| Oldog |
 Conventional wisdom is that you apply heat to the head and this eases the bolt tip extraction as it causes the red loctite to fail, I drilled up to 1/4" the 1/4" is the short LEFT HAND drill the hope was that the bit would catch and unscrew the bolt tip, Not - Today Friends I got to fight with this one.  The work is hot type and good gloves are required the black mechanics gloves will get you a trip to the hospital, the leather ones give you enough time to let go of a hot part with out burn.  The first 3 drill bits, I continued up to ~.365" (tap drill size for 7/16-14 NC) I was very close to dead center +/- .010" sadly the bolt was harder than hob, I had to employ a rotary file (carbide) and split it, chipping the bolt out in pieces.  | ||
| Oldog |
 I mamaged to break up the remnant of the bolt and pick it out this was a lentghty process and the threads here may have been compromised I may have to pull the head and have it welded up and machined for any other application it would be a success  the bolt screws in but it is sloppy this is a critical assembley, the faces are compromised as well so I have to decide about sending the head off for re work, but this is how a bolt is removed with out an ez out I could also consider going to 1/2-13 bolt it may work but I am putting a billet mount and new bolts from Al on the sled to solve this.  | ||
| Oldog |
After today I have to wonder If I want to continue the "ownershp experience" the bike seems to be a money pit lately! | ||
| Guell |
Jim, didnt you just put a new iso in? Do you think this was caused by fatigue mostly before or after the swap? | ||
| 5liter |
Was that the original mount? | ||
| Fullauto |
The first time my original mount broke. The last two times have taken the boss out of the head on the right hand side with a NRHS billet mount. I'm going to pull the head this time and take remedial action, ie. weld and helicoil. This is getting tedious. | ||
| Oldog |
Matt: To answer you yes, I do not believe that the iso caused this problem I could be wrong, if it did, then some one engineered it too close ( bigger bolt, bigger pad, harder cast faces would have been in order ) its annoying, FWIW if I were in your shoes I would bank on replacing the mount soon Al indicates that the bolts dont break with the billet mount, If I used the stock mount I would replace the bolts at 35K miles (based on mine failing at 39K ) I will be checking on all the angles and options, If I could afford it I would do XB heads and pistons and a billet mount repair and sell the old heads and pistons. I hope that the rest of the year is trouble free..... | ||
| Joesbuell |
Thats no good Jim! Looks like it all started with the bolt coming out, then the other side could not take the strain. Don't give up on the old girl mate! Have you thought of using a Timesert? thread repair. I used one for my trans sump plug and they are better than Helicoils, It's a full steel thread insert. Here's a linky. http://www.timesert.com/ Goodluck Jodie | ||
| Kilroy |
Better get the bike off the bottle jack or you may have more problems coming your way- | ||
| Oldog |
Better get the bike off the bottle jack or you may have more problems coming your way- I have 2 choices that bottle jack or a floor jack still jacking on the same place the shock mount is not so good as the shock is there, I plan on pulling the shock for repair I can place the jack there while I wait for stuff I cant see why the windage tray would crack, I saw RT's cracked tray I can put the other jack on it and then block it with wood then the Bottle jack the load is still there. | ||
| Buellistic |
BUELLers: If you put the "BOTTLE JACK" in the "WRONG PLACE" on you cases, it is possible to crack them !!! If it is to be left on jack for a long period of time, a block of wood adds a edge of safety for protection of the cases !!! MAY THE LONG LASTING BUELL BE WITH YOU !!! | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
Why not just hang it from inside a step ladder? Works for me and the cost is right. | ||
| Limitedx1 |
is misaligment the cause of these bolt failures.....or is it because the bolts become loose.....mine broke on me and the original owner once, but on opposite sides... | ||
| Riviera |
Is unintended use/abuse (wheelies) the primary cause of bolt failures? If on a budget, is it worthwhile to replace the front mount mounting bolts with Grade 8 versions before they fail? It sounds like the $230 billet mount doesn't fix the bolt shearing problem. | ||
| Doncasto |
For your perusal and evaluation . . . http://www.doncasto.net/boltreport.html Some of the information in the report is now a little dated and the Chromate high strength bolts mentioned are now difficult to obtain. (Message edited by doncasto on April 14, 2009) (Message edited by doncasto on April 14, 2009) | ||
| Buellistic |
BUELLers: Try this and see if it works for you ... Use GRADE 8 bolts(2), hard flat washers, and lock washers ... Put anti-size("i" use high temp. coper compound) on the threads and where the bolt heads, flat washers, and lock washers touch metal to metal for the most accurate torque ... Put everything together finger tight(all the front motor mount pieces), then let the engine hang as it normally would and then TORQUE the head to bracket bolts(torque to 20 ft.lbs, then turn bolt an additional 63 to 67 degrees), then the isolator to bracket bolt(63-70 ft.lbs.), and then the 2 isolator to frame bolts 30-33 ft.lbs. ... Then "i" safety wire the heads of the isolator bracket to head bolts together ... "YES", you can safety wire the heads of the two bolts together without safety wire holes in the bolt heads ... A STATEMENT ABOUT TORQUE "SPEC's.": They are given as XXX-XXX ft. lbs. for a reason ... Example: spark plugs 11-18 ft.lbs., if the spark plug/plugs stay tight at 12 ft.lbs. there is no reason to tighten any tighter !!! A true MECHANIC uses the torque SPEC's. as a reference as he can feel when "X" number of ft.lbs. is tight enough, ie: before the threads strip or a bolt breaks ... "AND" the TORQUE SPEC's. in a FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL can be "WRONG" which can cause the unknowing a lot of grief !!! MAY THE LONG LASTING BUELL BE WITH YOU !!! (Message edited by buellistic on April 14, 2009) (Message edited by BUELLISTIC on April 14, 2009) | ||
| Millx1 |
Here's Don's link cleaned up. http://www.doncasto.net/boltreport.html | ||
| Oldog |
Thanks Don that is interesting, How many have failed so far? Why not just hang it from inside a step ladder? I dont have one I borrowed the one I used for isos, and space is a problem. So far Q&E If I go this way, New T-storm Head with valves and springs RTG 370$, gaskets 50$ the local shop. Billet Mount and Bolts on the way. Don C how have the chromate bolts held up? The loctite is a high temperature version? regular red loctite fails at 200F | ||
| Jramsey |
Iso mount to head bolts only torque to 60 ft.lbs. | ||
| Kalali |
"Is unintended use/abuse (wheelies) the primary cause of bolt failures? If on a budget, is it worthwhile to replace the front mount mounting bolts with Grade 8 versions before they fail?" I honestly don't even know how pull a wheelie and I do ride the bike "as intended". So for someone like me, what can I do to prevent this type of failure? Would it be worth to take the bolts out, replace them with something stronger and torque them appropriately? For me, it would be a really expensive job since I will most likely have the dealer do the job. By the way, I assuming that hitting potholes or bumps would weaken" the joints so so far I have ben really lucky. Thanks guys. | ||
| Doncasto |
MillX1: Thanks for the assist. That will teach me to cut n' paste a link without testing it. Olddog: I have sent out about 60 pairs of the bolts with washers over the years. So far (knocking on mahogany veneer), I have not heard of any of them failing. I am ashamed to say that I forgot to hold back a couple of sets of bolts for my S2s. However, the S2s are not prone to this type of failure . . possibly due to their having a beefier (and possibly more expensive to manufacture) triangular mount. I am guessing that there have been at least 50 bolt failures noted on the BWB 1999. One can only guess how many there are in the total tuber population. If anyone can talk the Chromate folks into selling retail/by the bolt or knows of a source for these bolts, I'd appreciate hearing about it. (Message edited by doncasto on April 14, 2009) | ||
| Guell |
Ive got a package of dons chromate bolts sitting in my toolbox waiting til i do new heads. | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
Would it make sense to weld the mount to the head? | ||
| Limitedx1 |
am i mistaken but i thought those bolts were f911 which are grade 9. thats what i put back in mine and thats also what i broke... | ||
| Buellistic |
BUELLers: Here is the FRONT MOTOR MOUNT "HISTORY" of my 1997 S3T ... Bought it in may 0f 1997 and wrecked it in march of 1998 ... Wreck broke the front motor mount and a new one was installed by Dealer ... Got the recall motor mount kit later on, but never put it on because it had just had a new mount installed just before the re-call ... Some time there after the right motor mount bolt broke which caused the motor mount its self to break ... Replaced the broken motor mount with the MOTOR MOUNT RE-CALL KIT my self using the TORQUE SPECIFICATIONS from my 1997 FACTORY MOTORS MANUAL(no thread lock, but with anti-size compound) and have had no front motor mount problems since ... "i" used anti-size compound with high temperature coper compound in it on all bolts and threads ... MAY THE LONG LASTING BUELL BE WITH YOU !!! | ||
| Riviera |
Input from Al at American Sportbike below. Based on his comments regarding the mount's web between the head mounting points, could one be added (welded) to the factory mount? Or, is the mount a cast piece that'd be weakened by welding? Would a separate connector between the head mounting points, on top of the mount, be worthwhile? Q: In reading on BadWeb today, I see this comment, "I would bank on replacing the mount soon, Al indicates that the bolts don't break with the billet mount, If I used the stock mount I would replace the bolts." What's the story on why the engine's front mount fails? Mine looks fine and tight. Is this mostly due to hard use, such as wheelies? That's not my riding style, but I'd like to be proactive and prevent an inevitable failure due to a design flaw. Is your billet mount truly necessary? Or, should I just replace my mount's mounting bolts with something better? A: Hard to say. Some bikes break those bolts routinely. Others never do. My opinion: A bike that has broken one will probably do so again. I think it has to do with some resonances in the left hanger arm, and that some bikes excite that resonance more than others. The bolt breaks in fatigue, and it is ALWAYS the left bolt that fails, followed shortly thereafter by the right bolt, the right mount arm, or the right head boss. My S3 went through a couple bolts before I switched to the billet mount, then it stopped. My S1W didn’t break one, but I put the mount on anyway since I had the bike down for other top end maintenance. Neither has broken a bolt or mount since. 100% completely anecdotal, a sample size of two proves nothing. But there have been a BUNCH of bikes have that left bolt fail, but I’m not aware of any that have broken with the NRHS mount, very likely because of the web that joins the left arm to the right arm. 96 S1’s had a webbed mount as well. They seem to have less failures. It MAY be because of the heim joint mount that is on 99 and later X1s and S3s that excite that failure mode, hard to say. It isn’t like failures on M2s are unheard of, and they don’t have the upper forward Heim joint. Al |
