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Elpanameno
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 09:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok. This isn't a buell but it is an old ironhead sportster engine and the question is pretty general so I figured I would ask the people who are always pretty knowledgeable and have helped me in the past.

I bought an old "basket case" Harley that is completely dismantled and many of the parts are oxidized. The cylinder heads and pistons are brand new but the shafts that hold the pistons as well as many of the gears are lightly oxidized (no pitting that I can see)

What would be your recommendation to get these parts as clean of oxidation as possible before putting this thing back together?
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Chasespeed
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Soak them in oil, preferably a good penetrating oil...

Second off....

Go to

http://www.xlforum

They have an extensive Ironhead section...

Hope that helps...

Chase
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Jos51700
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wire brush + free time = no rust. Some oxidation will wipe off, as Chase mentioned, with oil.

Double check crank/rod bearings, or rebuild crank. Rusty bearing make for nasty breakage.
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Jramsey
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 11:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I use electrolysis,no scraping,wire brushing, total rust removal.

Materials required.
Plastic bucket large enough to submerge part.
Car or good motorcycle battery.
2 pieces of wire 16 gauge or heavier with alligator clips on each end.
A piece of bare steel, strap iron works best.
Baking soda.
Water.
The procedure goes as fallows.

Pour a couple of oz. baking soda into the plastic bucket and fill with water.
Connect the part to be cleaned with one of the wires to the NEG. terminal of the battery and lower into the bucket over to one side.
Next connect the other wire to the strap iron(the anode) and lower it into the solution on the other side being careful not to let the part or the anode to touch for obvious reasons and connect to the POS. terminal.

Within a matter of seconds you should start to see bubbles forming on the rusty part.
Leave it set for about a half an hour and check the progress.
The anode should be turning rusty which means the the process is working.
The anode needs to be scraped clean when fully rust covered.

Lightly rusted pieces will clean up in a few hours,whereas heavy rust might may take over night.
Where the rust was will have turned black and should clean up with a tooth brush and soapy water.
Coat the part with oil of your choice.
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Jos51700
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was going to suggest that, EXCEPT for:

(Insert booming voice of Doom here)
HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT

The hydrogen generated by that process impregnates the steel, significantly weakening every part you did that to.

You now need to bake all those parts for 4 hours at 300 degrees to remove that hydrogen, and no, I don't know what that's going to do in regards to the heat-treatment of the parts (probably nothing, but it's still a thought).

I did several sets of pliers with electrolysis a few years ago, and each one broke, because of the hydrogen embrittlement.
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Yo_barry
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

300 degrees won't do anything to the heat treatment. It's to low.
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Jos51700
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlemen t

That was kind of my take on it, since these motors run at over 300 degrees, but heat-treating is complicated....

http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php
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Werewulf
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

im a long time knife-maker....it depends on the steel...i temper some steels at 300 degrees to bring down the hardness and others as high as 900 degrees to reach the same rockwell..
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Jos51700
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Where can one learn such procedures for steel and aluminum?
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Citified
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think you can get an all new crankpin ,bearing, conrod combo from S@S. Google fog hollow, that is were I got all my Ironhead parts.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Balancing all that crap is a black art.
My '79 popped the keyway on the power output side of the crank and now it sports a 1984 crank which I was told is machined out of one chunk.
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Jramsey
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 12:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

werewulf,
You can't draw a decent temper at 300 degrees after heat treating whether it be O1,W1,D2 etc.
I've machined more than my fair share.

So here I go on another "Hostile" rant.
I called my older brother this evening, he is a recently retired Chemical Engineer from the EPA and holds a PHD. in the same.

His response to you naysayers was "Anodic cleaning, which is the most common way to electroclean, doesn't produce hydrogen embrittlement.
The people on the forum are just trying to show their knowledge of fancy sounding terms they don't understand, like the word billet"

Another words no heat involved no problems.
If it were a problem their wouldn't be any chrome plated parts on anything.

(Message edited by J.ramsey on April 11, 2008)

(Message edited by J.ramsey on April 11, 2008)
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Werewulf
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 03:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

yes its a hostile rant!! what i said is fact,but weather its true or not, whats with you?..you just like to be rude?

(Message edited by werewulf on April 11, 2008)

(Message edited by werewulf on April 11, 2008)

(Message edited by werewulf on April 11, 2008)
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Jos51700
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

" from the EPA "

That alone, is grounds for ignoring every word out of his mouth.
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Jos51700
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

#1 http://www.finishing.com/132/11.shtml

"Well, in anodic cleaning, oxygen is released at the workpiece; in cathodic cleaning, hydrogen is released at the workpiece."

#2 http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

-In regards to de-rusting an old horseshoe:

"Once ready, the shoe was connected as cathode and a current limited to one quarter of an amp was applied and everything left to run for forty-eight hours.

#3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlemen t

"Hydrogen embrittlement can happen during various manufacturing operations or operational use, anywhere where the metal comes in contact with atomic or molecular hydrogen."

So, we've established that in cathodic cleaning, hydrogen is generated on the workpiece, and that in rust removal, the steel workpiece is the cathode, and that any steel in the presence of hydrogen will absorb said hydrogen, thus suffering from said hydrogen embrittlement.

More proof? The oxygen generated on the anode during the electrolytic process would cause the steel to rust more, so regardless of the anode/cathode, we know the steel workpiece we're removing rust from is exposed to hydrogen, not oxygen.

He's correct regarding anodic cleaning, but in this discussion, your chemical engineer brother (credentials aside) is wrong.

This is more the realm of a materials engineer, anyway. No chemical reactions take place during hydrogen embrittlement.

"The mechanism begins with lone hydrogen atoms diffusing through the metal. When these hydrogen atoms re-combine in minuscule voids of the metal matrix to form hydrogen molecules, they create pressure from inside the cavity they are in."
No chemical process required.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlemen tanodic
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Jramsey
Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"that alone is grounds for ignoring every word out of his mouth"

You can thank him that your still able to change oil in your own garage and have obnoxious loud exhaust here in the midwest.

He's probably owned more Buells than you've ever worked on.

Dickapedia is the only dictionary system to date that ANYBODY can ad to the definition as one see's fit to suit their needs.

Reread last sentence third paragraph of my second post.

(Message edited by J.ramsey on April 12, 2008)
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Jos51700
Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"He's probably owned more Buells than you've ever worked on. "

You realize that's in the thousands, right?

"Reread last sentence third paragraph of my second post. "

Exactly how does that affect my statements?

FY(non-Wiki)I:
http://www.mechanicalplating.com/hydrogen.htm
(also explains why frames aren't chromed, to address another point you made. Bike shops have known for years that chrome plated steel is weaker, and why I don't use chrome plated bolts)
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-HIC/embritt lement.htm
http://www.uni-saarland.de/fak8/wwm/research/phd_b arnoush/hydrogen.pdf

Wow, they all support "Dickipedia".

I've edited my original post, because it was rude. I offer my apologies.

(Message edited by jos51700 on April 12, 2008)
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Jos51700
Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Reread last sentence third paragraph of my second post."

Please post the sentence you are referring to, and why it's important. I want to understand your point of view.
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Jramsey
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"That alone is grounds for ignoring every word that comes out of his mouth"

While your painting with such a broad brush the above statement could also apply to most H-D mechanics.

You were a lot nicer person to talk to before you started having marriage problems.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You guys need to get a room.
It sounds like you would make a perfect married couple.
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Jos51700
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"You were a lot nicer person to talk to before you started having marriage problems."

Are you my next door neighbor, Dina?

We don't need a room. I've proven my point, he/she/it refuses to support theirs.

I Win!!!
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Skntpig
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This was a ton more fun when the idea was about helping other buell enthusiasts.

Ok Jos, you are the winner. Collect your prize.

Does anyone else have anything to help the original poster; or just more fuel for the everlasting "I'm the smartest guy on the internet" battle?

Think to yourself: Do I help anyone, or just try to prove someone wrong when I see the chance?

It seems like some people just enjoy an argument. I bet you two just can't wait to see what the other wrote...Sorry, I don't get it. Feel free to tell me how wrong I am. Relax
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Jos51700
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was trying to help the guy avoid breaking stuff. But I'm a douche for using logic, reasoning, and proof, as a basis for my responses.
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Jramsey
Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I win" That and a dollar bill will get you a cup of coffee at the local convenience store.

"Dina"? no but over at swmosportbikes.com lately when someone ask what your doing, your reply the last month has been "I'm fighting with the wife."

"I've proven my point"
Have you ever actually used the process?
I doubt it.
Do you you have/own a Rockwell hardness tester?
I do.


"Proof."
Info on the net is worth what you pay for it.....not much.


Like I said over in the XBoard about the front rotor bolts thread, you asked a simple question about the various styles of bolts used on the different years, then when I replied what my bike used you attacked me for for no reason.

I bite my lip a lot on the forums I visit and have many times deleted my replies right before I hit the submit reply icon because I felt best the previous poster would take it wrong unless we were talking face to face.

Other than John I do apologize to everyone on the forum, but if someone slaps you for no reason wouldn't you slap back?
If you human and have a pulse you sure as hell would.

Maybe in time John and I can work out our differences.
Best regards
J.Ramsey
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Jos51700
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 08:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

""I'm fighting with the wife.""

Obviously, you don't know me as well as you think you do, or else you'd know that most of what I say about my personal life is dripping with sarcasm.

"Do you you have/own a Rockwell hardness tester?"

Do you realize there's more to this than a hardness scale, and beyond that, people's safety is at hand?

On SwmoSportbikes, if we have an issue with someone, we take it to Private Messages. Once you can face me directly, you'll get alot more accomplished.
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Cyclonemduece
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

GIVE UP omg you two look like a couple of childeren fighting over whos dad is stronger, get real, this thread should just be removed.
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Jos51700
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm not the one bringing personal vendetta's on to this site, but I sure as hell will defend myself.
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Newbuellertoo
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Why not just add this thread to the "Cheap Fastener" thread?
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When any debate devolves into personal commentary, the point is lost. If we cannot stick to debating the issues, rather than the people who disagree with us, we have lost the debate.

Whether initiating or reacting in kind, shame on us when we do that. It harms our forum, leads to ill-will, and just serves no good or positive end. It's just petty miserableness, which is sucky.

Can we all agree on that?
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