| Author | Message | ||
     Dave_02_1200 |
I have been wondering how our Buells would run with old style contact breaker points and mechanical auto advance units in place of our modern ECMs and electronic pickups. In the 60s and early 70s two of my friends had really fast Sportsters. One was stroked and was fast enough to humble the Kawasaki Z1s in the neighborhood. The other was mostly stock but had some P-4 cams and an S&S carb. It was way faster than my 650 Triumph. Both bikes ran well. Has anyone tried a retrofit? Aside from having to set the gap and time it periodically with a strobe light, what would be the down side? Any experience, or even reasoned speculation, would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave | ||
| Ratbuell |
My thought is, it's like the springer front end. Works alright...but there's a reason we've moved to "better" technology since then. | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
Joe, Right you are. However, my interest stems from my prior experience with points and the comfort that I can set my ignition timing at a campsite if needed with just a few simple tools and fault diagnosis and repair is bone-head simple. I fear that if my "magic box" decides to go into early retirement while I am far from home there will be no simple fix that does not involve a cell phone call to place a credit card order and a wait of a day or more for the part to arrive and then hope that I guessed right about that went wrong. Worst case would be to fry the new part due to misdiagnosis and still be screwed but over $200 poorer and several days behind schedule. I am thinking that, even if a simple battery coil breaker points system is a bit less powerful it still might be a good solution for peace of mind and self sufficiency. That is why, although the DDFI on my S3 works great, I have a good feeling about the simple Mikuni 42 on my M2 that I think works about as well as the more complex fuel injection and I can understand it. Of course, I am a bit of a luddite and make no apology for that. My 650 Triumph has run a capacitor in place of the OEM battery for 38 years now and I confess that really would like a kick starter for my Buells. Oh well, such is progress. But I am still interested in knowing the down side to a breaker point ignition. | ||
| Werewulf |
apples to oranges, but i used to have a 67 street hemi with a dual point ignition... in 71, chrysler came out with the electronic ignition... i retro fitted the new system to my hemi... it was better in every way (no points bounce etc.) and the failure rate, even in those days was rare... | ||
| Fasted |
i too am a bit of a luddite. i have decided to quit posting electronically please train your eyes toward indiana, and keep an eye out for my smoke signals. i hope to progress to telegraph sometime next decade...........but am not sure about those crazy wires....reliability ??? | ||
| Jos51700 |
High maintenance. Moisture sensitive. Inconsistent tuning. Subject to mechanical wear. Incapable of self adjustment. You're worried about reliability, and consider points a more reliable alternative? Points used to leave people walking all the time. The ultimate answer here is that, like Linus's blanket, the point are simply familiar, while the DDFI is not. I do not march to the tune of "technology for technology's sake is better". I often wonder about the days when oil runs out. I marvel at people that trade in all their hand tools for power tools. When the power goes out, they're screwed. I will always keep an axe next to my chainsaw. But this boils down to one simple thing. You can see the points work, and you can't see the DDFI work. Like light, you cannot see what it's made of, the only thing you can see is the evidence of something happening. That's all you can see and it's understandable to be scared by that. However, certain aspects of your desire for points can be said against them, as well. How do you know your condenser is bad? (I've seen more of those go bad than dead EFI parts, and frankly, I've seen THOUSANDS more EFI bikes.) How do you know if it's a bad coil? That could apply to either system. If you're not scared of a dead condenser or coil, you shouldn't be scared of a dead EFI part. What if you're in the middle of nowhere and bust an advance spring or lose a flyweight clip? Wire harness aside and sparkplugs aside, you can carry three components and fix an entire DDFI system. $200? eBay is currently rife with these parts. Supply and demand. Points are for more delicate, require far more tools (especially in our theoretical deserted highway scenario), and require far more base knowledge to fix. (Proper diagnosis between the two is a toss-up, as it all boils down to base knowledge. 10 years ago, most everyone could diagnose points, myself included. Nowadays, most of us have to sit down and think about it for awhile). I have to know how physically remove the points, how to wire them, how to set gap, (How to time with a light, to do it right), and I have to keep them clean, dry, and I have to do it all on a regular basis. My DDFI, or even your M2, requires the same skills to fix in the desert if parts are available (You have the parts for your points, so we'll have the parts for this). Unplug ECM/control module, and replace. We need not worry about wiring colors or any of that, and we darn sure don't have to make sure the wire is isolated from ground by some fragile fiberwasher, as the connectors are fully watertight, and fit only one way. We can shove all day, it won't go until we get smart and turn it 'round the other way (This is, though, something electrical that you CAN see how it works). We replace the coil, unbolt everything (there again, idjit-proofing saves the day), then simply reinstall fasteners with new parts in place. We pull the timing plate. To do it right, we'd need to know how to disassemble the watertight connector to feed the wires through the hole, but that's essentially optional. Reinstall new plate, with aforementioned only-goes-one-way connector, and pick a spot to tighten it down. Unlike points, the bike will run regardless of where we twist the plate to. It may not run well, but it will convert gasoline, air, and sparks in to water and pollution. Without diagnosing, and excluding common failure points like spark plugs or wiring issues, our DDFI bike is ready to rumble, regardless of component failure. The DDFI is really not much more sophisticated than the ignition system on your M2. It simply controls more with the exact same inputs from the engine, and 3 (minimum) or 4 (maximum) more sensors, that allow it to do ten times what a carb can. Ride your carbed bike to the top of Pikes Peak................Oh, wait, you've gotta change fouled plugs or rejet. Fuel injection has a few drawbacks, but no more than a carb, and most of either's problems stem from variables beyond the scope of either design (bad fuel, dirt, water, etc). But it does offer specific, distinct advantages that the carb can't touch (Constant tuning, efficiency, power, emissions etc). The carbs advantages are, requires no electricity, and simple to work on. I used to be like you, "Points and carbs work well, and are easy and cheap. EFI is expensive and complicated and black-magic. I'm gonna convert this FI bike to a carb" After learning how it works, and realizing after a decade of having to fix old and new bikes, and realizing that I don't have to fix new bikes near as much (And not because they're new, but because they're better), I now find myself desiring to convert bikes to FI. The benefits and ease of operation are unsurpassed. Learn the FI, and you'll learn to love it. Let go of the security blanket, Linus! | ||
| Jos51700 |
BTW, with points and carbs, they run OK, but they certainly don't make the power. | ||
| Jos51700 |
If you're old enough to remember Ironhead sportsters and Z1's (most on this board will have to Google those), then the electric start will be handy in a few years. These bikes are a bitch to kickstart! The Z1's and Xl's in your neighborhood were quick, but I'm guessing there weren't any RD350's around! | ||
| Ratbuell |
I guess I can see the comfort zone as well. All my bikes are carbed and I never give it a second thought - none sit long enough to give any issues and they always start and run hiccup-free for me. However, when I bought a bare S2 frame and started formulating a plan to build "my" Buell, I think I've latched onto building an EFI bike. Never had one but I've ridden plenty of them for work...and I know EFI "theory" because my other hobby is 2.2 turbo Chrysler cars. The sensors themselves (aside from the O2, sitting there in the exhaust) rarely fail, and you will usually get a trouble code out of an ECM before you get a total failure so you have a "warning" period of sorts. So I'm comfortable with either system, I guess. I used to tell my customers, when the 07 HDs came out and no more carburetors: "yeah, you can fix a carb on the side of the road if you have to...but with fuel injection you don't have to, so why worry?" It really is a better system. If you're going on a long trip, toss an ignition box and pickup in a pocket before you go, just like you would with a spare point set. I think if you went to points, you'd be making more work for yourself what with having to do all the adjustments manually that the ignition system takes care of for you now. | ||
| Zenfrogmaster |
The down side to points is wear (and settings drift), need to adjust and replace, and possibly a weaker ignition. Given all that, modern systems are great, but they are "all or nothing" - they generally last a maintenance-free forever, but when (if) they do go, it's not a roadside fix. Since many people, myself included, enjoy tinkering and maintenance, points aren't necessarily a bad thing, just an anachronism. Like you, Dave, I wish that bikes still offered kick start, even though I've never had a battery or starter fail on me. It's also why I like carbs, even though I've never experienced an FI failure that couldn't be fixed with a relay or fuse. BUT - I do keep spare black boxes for all my vehicles in the garage, so if something does fail, support is at worst an overnight delivery away. That's my compromise with modernity... | ||
| Jos51700 |
I've fixed many a kickstart, too. I like clutches. Kickstarting does apply something to ones' soul that an electric starter does not. It gives the bikes character, and makes them more personal, quirky, and alive. All things that Honda likes to remove from vehicles. Besides, no one ever told a funny story about and electric starter...."This one time, I pushed a button, and it started! Haw haw haw!" It's always, "I forgot to find the compression stroke and it sent me over the handlebars, right onto this Hell's Angel, and he spilt his beer and kicked my ass! Haw Haw Haw!" | ||
| Jos51700 |
Nice to see another Mopar enthusiast here. I've been thinking about twin-turboing my '72 360 Dart. Lousy 8.5:1 pistons have to be useful for something. | ||
| Werewulf |
my first new car was a 67 383 cuda, then the hemi, then a 440+6 cuda, a hemi roadrunner.. a home made 340+6 valiant.. yep i was bitten bad by the mopar snake... in 73, i parted out my hemi gtx when gas got short...it was a sin that i still kick myself for.. | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
John, Good and valid points (no pun intended). I appreciate that you mention RD 350s. I worked at a Triumph, Norton, Yamaha, Bultaco dealer in the 1970s and roadraced RDs until 1984. They were great bikes and were actually much faster around most race tracks than Triumph 650s or Norton 750s. They ruled until the GPZ550 came along. I have always had at least one RD or RZ 350 in the garage until a few years ago when a friend convinced me to sell him my RZ 350 with full Toomy race kit, etc. I had a moment of disorientation and agreed to sell. Oh well, I didn't ride it often anyway and when I did I always went way too fast for street riding so maybe he did me a favor. Thanks, Dave | ||
| Jos51700 |
So, you can offer some good porting guidelines for mine, then! (It has a CDI made by a guy in India named Chinoy. Good-bye points!) I'm actually working on converting it to EFI using GSXR throttle bodies. | ||
| Jos51700 |
This has been one of my favorite threads since I got active on this board. | ||
| Guell |
so how difficult would it be to convert to FI from a carb? | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
John, If you have an RD 350, stock ports with a Boyson two-stage reed set will work well on the street. You can use the stock air box with the factory approved modification to the top and an OEM replacement K&N filter. If you want to increase top end (at the expense of midrange) you can raise the exhaust port about .5 mm if I remember correctly. My notebook is long gone and my memory is not 100% reliable on such things any more. The fastest and best race set up was to use TZ 250/350 porting specs along with a good pipe. I like the one designed by Erv Kanemoto and built by Stuart Toomy of Toomy Racing. Also, if you get your RD to a higher state of tune, remember to retard the ignition a bit to prevent detonation. There was no loss of power by retarding a few degrees and they run much cooler. In my race career my RD never failed to finish due to mechanical problems, even in 5-hour endurance races. My DNFs came from having greater confidence than skill and a desire to win that was stronger than my ability to exercise restraint when warranted. I feel lucky to have been in the right place at the right time to do that then and I must admit that many of my "peak experiences" were on my beloved RDs. Some of my old friends are still around and still have their old racebikes. Let me know if I can help with your project. Dave | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
John, If you have an RD 350, stock ports with a Boyson two-stage reed set will work well on the street. You can use the stock air box with the factory approved modification to the top and an OEM replacement K&N filter. If you want to increase top end (at the expense of midrange) you can raise the exhaust port about .5 mm if I remember correctly. My notebook is long gone and my memory is not 100% reliable on such things any more. The fastest and best race set up was to use TZ 250/350 porting specs along with a good pipe. I like the one designed by Erv Kanemoto and built by Stuart Toomy of Toomy Racing. Also, if you get your RD to a higher state of tune, remember to retard the ignition a bit to prevent detonation. There was no loss of power by retarding a few degrees and they run much cooler. In my race career my RD never failed to finish due to mechanical problems, even in 5-hour endurance races. My DNFs came from having greater confidence than skill and a desire to win that was stronger than my ability to exercise restraint when warranted. I feel lucky to have been in the right place at the right time to do that then and I must admit that many of my "peak experiences" were on my beloved RDs. Some of my old friends are still around and still have their old racebikes. Let me know if I can help with your project. Dave | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Dave_02_1200, my take: on the speculative part of your question. I have begun to enjoy the superior durability of modern electronic systems but do not enjoy their complications to both troubleshoot and change for performance. But for now I'm getting educated to do both. Learning seems to be a lifelong experience. On the experience part of your question: in the mid-eighties I ran a turboed 1000 cc BMW boxer on the Bonneville Salt Flats and made 150+ mph. At first it had duel points/coils. When one set of points loosened and retarded my ignition on one cylinder, that piston melted the crown, ending one particular day of running. Thank goodness for Venolia forged pistons! The cure, then, was to convert to single triggering magnetic impulse firing one coil on both cylinders. One on precise intake and at the same time one on exhaust with no harm at all. This was good for complete ignition at up to 8500 rpm's and with over 15 lbs of boost and alcohol injection for cooling purposes. Motor never failed after this. My personal conclusion: For everyday use I like modern electronics as on my new 1125R, but I still like, as on my M2, carburation and a triggering device, especially magnetic impulse for the wide SIMPLE adjustments that cam be mad. AND you can carry a spare set of jets and triggers in your tool kit. A coil is right at your local Walmart/Checker,Autozone. I have the trailer handy for my new bike, just in case. Stay safe, Bob | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
Bob, I love the iron head Sportster on your profile. Not your average mid-70s custom Sportster! Your comments make a lot of sense to me. I think I'll pick up a spare ECM and some triggers for the tank bag. Thanks for your perspective Regards, Dave | ||
| Ratbuell |
Jos - if you want to turbo, let me know. I have a shelf full of cores. My 360 Satellite wagon is going to get a Procharger...eventually  Did you see the recent Hot Rod? They have a low-buck build on a 5.9 Magnum engine - heads, cam, intake, carb - 450+ hp. Stock bottom end. Sorry. I see the word "Mopar" and get all goofy... | ||
| Blake |
Buy a spare ignition module/ECM? | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Blake, you just ruined my old school tuning ego. LOL with tongue in cheek. But in reality a really good idea for anybodys cross country ventures. The module controls F.I. and ignition, I believe, and would probably be a pretty instant fix for either problem by merely switching it out and test. There could be other problems but that would be an easy first troubleshoot. These units are so troublefree though, I doubt you would ever need one. Now tuning is a little different matter which I believe would require some kind of controller and maybe even a laptop to adjust ANYTHING. Interesting......staying tuned in (pardon the pun) for my further education. Bob | ||
| Buell78758 |
All I can say is "why?" Save your time and $$ for a good shock for your Buell its the best upgrade you can make. | ||
| Jos51700 |
Rat, I've been thinking about swapping a Magnum top end onto my 360. I won't make the power in the HotRod article without the roller cam, and that's kind of why I was thinking forced induction. I've wondered if a couple of 2.2 turbos would be a good fit on a 360. I know very little about turbo's except that there's alot more there than meets the eye. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I think unless you went with upgraded (60 or 70 trim) sizing, the 2.2 units would be too small. The stock .48 a/r was woefully undersized for the 2.5 motor, and it was marginal for the 2.2...and you figure you've got more than 2x a 2.5 in a 5.9... But I know guys who've done it successfully. Most have used Holsets off the Cummins trucks. The three most important things are fuel, fuel, and fuel. Lean condition damage is more-than-squared when you run boost. I can take a pic of my donut piston from a 2.5 Shadow I own - stock 7.8:1 compression, 24psi boost level, just a hair too much timing and a breath of going lean...poof. Done. Ran an 11.80 that run though The Magnum top end swap is easy - change to pushrod oiling, change the intake to match the heads (different bolt angle), and go. Or just do what I did - I have a milkshake motor (popped headgasket) out of a 99 Durango that I plan to use for my build. I like the LA motor in the Satellite now...it's a solid low 13 second station wagon, but the Magnum motors have a lot of nice updates to 'em. Not the least of which being 10 bolt valve covers that DON'T LEAK. whoa...wait...which forum am I on? Sorry...lol. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Buy a spare ignition module/ECM? Buy a Race ECM and keep the original as a spare. You probably won't need it, so just leave it home in a known, easy to find spot so somebody could ship it overnight if required. Otherwise I agree that your money could be better spent elsewhere.... | ||
| Firemanjim |
Check out www.turbomustangs.com for lots of ideas on turboing your ride. I cruise thru there to pick up ideas for my bikes. My Mopar was a 1963 Plymouth Savoy,ex-CHP car, rubber floor mats,the basest interior ever, but a 413 and 160 mph certified speedometer and positraction,stuck the entire running gear from a 1969 GTX in it. 440 magnum,Dana 60 3.55 posi,front disc brakes,and front and rear sway bars. What fun! | ||
| Jos51700 |
I just put the 360 in my Dart in September. I blew the 3rd slant 6 in the car, and it's sat since highschool (1995). I added a 4-speed and a 3.23 Sure-grip 8 3/4. It's a little lazy now, the AVS carb isn't very responsive (it was hooked to an automatic, originally.) I'd like to find a double-pumper for it, but I'm kinda cheap. Now that I think about it, I have the Magnum heads for this motor, and I know they offer mucho benefits for the 360, bigger lighter valves, tighter combustion chamber, and WAY better ports, but I couldn't find a cheap valvespring to work with my cam (Comp 268H, .484 lift, which turns to like .515 with the Magnum head 1.6 rockerarms). I'd have to run the MP retainers and all that, and with the locks, springs, and all was like 600 bucks! |
