| Author | Message | ||
     Fitz4321 |
I woke up this morning all excited for my first serious ride of the season on my 2000 S3. Only 46 miles out my rear wheel locks up while i'm doing 80 mph on the highway. The rear wheel swung about three good fishtails before I grew a brain and pulled the clutch in and coasted to the shoulder. I was lucky it happened where it did, the road had a hard left turn 200 yards in front of me... I would have went down. After I verified my shorts were clean and yelled a few profanities at myself for not grabbing the clutch earlier to avoid more fishtails then necessary, I inspected the bike. I found two gashes in the primary cover, My guess is the primary chain snapped and locked everything up in there. During my tow home I decided the Buell has to go. I will never again be able to ride it and trust it after that. I went to the Suzuki dealer and made up my mind on a new SV1000S (an affordable twin). I'm going to fix the Buell this week and sell it cheep and fast. It's been nothing but a headache since I got it. | ||
| Jespo_m2 |
Glad to hear that your OK... I have nothing against HD but it's a shame that their parts were the cause of the problem. | ||
| Phat_j |
i've never seen a broken primary chain on these things, i'd bet is a tensioner issue, have you checked it lately? | ||
| Naustin |
+1 on Phat_j. | ||
| Kuuud |
I'm sure no one has EVER had anything similar happen on a UJM! | ||
| Miltosx1 |
chain did not break but upon clutch replacement before 1000mi trip ..found the chain to be right on the brink of failure.. I feel you and also dream of a second bike.. | ||
| Dfbutler |
You may find that what broke was the plastic/nylon primary chain tensioner, been there done that and have tee shirts from 2 different Harley dealers where the bike ended up for initial repairs and subsequent repairs from the initial botched fix. | ||
| Fitz4321 |
I replaced the tensioner last week with the upgraded one. I think the problem was that it was broke for a while before I replaced it (i diden't know it was broke, I would not have rode it that way if i did). I think the chain was compromised by slapping against the top of the primary case during that time. I got it apart, it was the chain. This is going to cost me about $350 in parts. 70 for chain, 20 for gasket, 240 for primary cover & 20 for tensioner + tax. I'm just going to trade this bike in next week at the dealership. I probably get 3000 - 3500 in trade in. I don't want to go through the hassle of selling it. SV1000s is going to be the new toy. (Message edited by fitz4321 on May 07, 2007) | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
Techs like me point at customers like you that think they know how to work on bikes as the problem. Its easy to ID a stretched chain. You had a the symptoms but were not able to get to the root cause. Im not slamming you. Im just typing this for everyone else who thinks a Harley education is a waste of money. | ||
| Beatx1 |
So what exactly are the signs of a bad chain? Is it like a regular chain, play in between the links? My bike has almost 60,000 miles on it and this kind of sparked my interest. Thanks | ||
| Mikej |
Please save that attitude for the water cooler in the back of the shop lest we start having a pissing match comparing hack home mechanics to hack shop graduates, okay? Thanks. And chains don't "stretch", they wear. And unless you use a measurement tool it is very difficult to ID a worn/stretched chain, unless you see the sprocket teeth are also very worn or cupped. Fitz4321, How many miles are on your bike? Miltosx1, How many miles were on your bike when you noticed the chain needed replacing. For motorcycles I've had in the past with chain final drive I found I went through 2-4 rear sprockets for each multiple chain replacements (something like 2-4 chains per rear sprocket), and the front primary sprocket about once per every 3-4 rear sprocket replacements. Chain wear is related to usage, abuse, and fluid changes. I have no idea what the recommended replacement frequency is for a primary chain for a Buell or Sportster, is that even in the service manual? And do graduated dealership service technicians regularly even check for primary chain wear when doing regularly scheduled fluid changes? No flaming nor challenging intended against our esteemed MMI graduate, just looking for the facts or general consensus on the subject. And I'm really curious how one would properly even check a primary chain during a fluid change without removing the primary cover. Maybe post a pic or link showing a primary chain measurement tool if someone could, thanks. Thanks for any valid input. | ||
| Kyrocket |
Mikej I am by no means a mathmatician but if you are riding the speeds indicated on your profile you should never wear out anything, much less a primary chain. I check out profiles to see who might be close to me to ride, sorry you're too far away, but by all means correct me if I'm wrong, you're only doing 2.45mph  | ||
| Bomber |
you can check ANY kind of chain for wear by trying to pull it away from the sprocket -- best place would be the very front of the front sprocket, or rear of the rear sprocket, where the chain is wrapped about 180 degrees around the sprocket a brand new chain will not allow itself to be pulled much, if at all, from the sprocket -- the part of the chain that wears (pins and rollers) will result in a chain that will be able to be pulled away from the sprocket at those points -- any more than 1/8" of an inch would have me wary of a primary drive chain MikeJ may look slow -- go ahead, bet him pinks at a BattleTrax ;-} | ||
| Mikej |
Kyrocket, I used to have "the road is for riding, the track is for racing" in my profile. I've buried a speedometer or two in my day, of course back then there weren't many speedos that read over 120mph so who really knows how fast things were going  . I've also worn out a few chains and sprockets on bicycles over the years, and I don't think I've ever topped 50mph on one of those.  Bomber, Kind of hard to lift a primary chain with the primary cover still on , but then Fitz did say he recently replaced the tensioner so he probably had his off at the time. Thinking back I never did check the chain wear on the M2 when I swapped out the tensioner on that last year. Might have to go find me one of those chain wear indicators. I wonder if the Park Tool bicycle one I have hidden away somewhere will work????? General question: what is the chain dimension of the primary chain, is it a 1/2" spacing, 1", something else????? I might have to rig something up that will fit through the clutch inspection cover if Jim's Tools doesn't make one already. Oh, and I never bet pinks, unless it's Salmon steaks cooked on a cedar plank over an open fire under the stars on a cool summer night.... but I digress | ||
| Eshardball |
This potential catastrophy raises a good point. I have a Karata belt drive in the primary of my 72XLCH. Does anyone make a primary belt kit for Buells? I'm sure a belt breaking inside the primary would not be good either but it should provide good service running in a protected environment. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Techs like me point at customers like you that think they know how to work on bikes as the problem. I have to call you on that one. The last TWO times I've picked my bike up from having service work performed by (qualified) techs, I have lost confidence because they left the shifter bolts loose and on another occasion they left the rear axle pinch bolt loose and on yet another occasion they left one of the rear brake caliper bolts loose. I have NO confidence in anyone but myself working on my bike. I don't want to die because of someone elses neglegence. Get off your attitude and see why many of us feel the same way. BC Steve | ||
| Mikej |
Eshardball, Someone on the site here has or had a belt primary drive on their Buell, might have been in combination with a turbocharger, I think they were trying to come up with a suitable primary cover for it. (Unless I'm cross-forum thinking from some other site/brand/marque/focus, in which case never mind.) | ||
| Bomber |
Mike -- yer right, of course, ya gotta remove the cover to do the test -- I'm sure that a highly trained, on the ball tech could make the call after backing off the adjuster, but, as an ignorant petrol head and shade tree wrench (measure with a ruler, mark with chalk, cut with a torch), I do the check when I've got the primary off ;-} I've got about 80K miles on my original primary chain -- barely moves off the sprocket at all -- plan on continuing to use it, thank you very much chains don't wear much unless they're run dry, run very poorly adjusted, or subjected to abrasive spooge -- or, of course, unless they were improperly manufactured in the first place | ||
| Mikej |
Yep, the primary chains are pretty much under constant lubrication in a somewhat wet bath, discounting the occasional moisture-laden chocolate milk frothy substance one sometimes finds in one's primary in early and late season rides and in the occasional wet main season distance ride. I wonder what the measured wear friction coefficient is between SportTrans Fluid with 3,000 miles on it compared to the new Synth lube approved by the MoCo at 5,000 miles and both compared to the chocolate milk substance that Sport Trans sometimes gets turned into during wet dew damp mountain rides with the bike put down wet and hot for the night after the sun sets on the horizon causing it to thereby suck fresh moisture in thru the vent tube as it cools down in the evening air as said rider cooks chili for a late dinner over an open Sterno fire in the fire pit by the tent. Just curious. This reminds me, I have to go buy a new grease pencil for measurements and markings since I'm about to tear into the Maxim's carbs possibly as early as two weekends from now. One shouldn't rush into rebuilding 4 carbs without proper planning. Wait a minute, I think the Maxim has a chain driven overhead cam system. Dang, another chain to go measure. I think I'll go ponder this at lunch today in a shady used book store near here. | ||
| Djkaplan |
I hate the word 'tech'. There are good mechanics and bad mechanics, no matter where they are or what they've graduated from... just like doctors, really. Any 'tech' who assumes he knows more than every customer is just setting himself up for bad business and a pissed-off customer... and there is no customer worse than an ex-mechanic. | ||
| Djkaplan |
That SV1000S is a great bike, btw. | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
Seriously , dont mistake that for an atitude. Its just a reality and the way some people see it. I dont all the time. It all comes to this. DO you KNOW or do you NOT KNOW. Mike j its easy to tell a STRETCHED chain. Chugging or engine lugging symptom can show you guys. The OP Knew something was loose in his primary or heard noise. Ive been around alot of neglected old rides. This happens. Mike when is the last time you read the primary chain adj procedure? ANyone with or without an attitude could figure something aint right if it was measured. Im sure many dont RTFM. I got 20 years on a 1957 panhead and 2 on an x1. Ive seen several stretched primary and final drive chains in my lifetime. Yes they do wear out. Again RTFM ......maintenance, care. Hacking and attitude aside please. Its ignorance and lazyness and we are all guilty of that one time or another. Take for example my worthless parents. Hell fire, theres been plenty of suckers and mothers who almost caused me and my bike to bite the dust. Do I blame them for failure or reward myself for living. Someone has to take the blame. just mho. (Message edited by mmmi_grad on May 08, 2007) | ||
| Mikej |
It's been over a year since I read TFM, I'll have to do that this weekend. I never wore out the primary chain on my old '42 Knucklehead with many many miles on it, the guy I swapped it off to way back then eventually converted it to an open primary. I'll be updating the tensioner on the S2 sometime this summer and will make a note to check for any wear, pretty sure it isn't stretched though since the engine is still stock . (sorry, a little sarcastic attitude snuck in there, wear, stretch, same difference... ) And I blame them for their failure and reward myself for living. I guess that's having my cake and eating it too if I want to stretch the analogy a bit. I'm sure you're a good mechanic/tech and serve as a valid example for others to follow if you indeed do regularly check for primary chain wear when adjusting a customer's primary chain. Thanks for caring. | ||
| Mikej |
Just checked the S1 service manual floating around and found the following:
Doesn't say anything about how to measure if the chain is worn, just if you can't get the slack adjusted to within limits which could be a worn out shoe. I'm on a slow link so can't search any further since section 6 simply went into the replacement of parts and didn't appear to mention any measurement of chain wear limits. Oh well. | ||
| Oldog |
For motorcycles I've had in the past with chain final drive I found I went through 2-4 rear sprockets for each multiple chain replacements (something like 2-4 chains per rear sprocket), and the front primary sprocket about once per every 3-4 rear sprocket replacements. Chain wear is related to usage, abuse, and fluid changes. Because of the pin to bushing wear chains and sprockets should be changed as sets as the chain wears out it wears the sprocket teeth even if they are not visibly hooked they are worn. visual examination by comparing with a new part usually confirms this. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Anyone that thinks "home mechanic" is synonymous with "bad mechanic" is pretty shallow. And, to answer the question, measuring chain wear is not rocket science. The best way is to lay a metal rule on the side plates and notice the spacing increments on the rivets. The standard spacing puts those rivets *exactly* evenly spaced. I think the spacing on the primary chain is 3/8" so every rivet on a new chain will align with a the lines on an inch ruler. As wear accumulates the spacing increases. If you pull on the chain with a rivet aligned with an inch mark on right end, the amount of error or misalignment will slowly increase as you look to the left. I don't know what works on H-D primary chains but on bicycle chains an error of 1/16" in a foot of chain is a badly worn chain. The primary chains are much heavier chain and live in a oil bath so I'd be surprised to ever find that much wear in a well used primary chain. I'd think primary chains on the H-D V-twins would be good for the life of the lower end of the engine. At least. If I were doing a crank up rebuild I'd replace the chain. And the sprockets too. It is not smart to put new chain on old sprockets as it will accelerate the wear. If you increase power quite a bit, drag race, do wheelies, etc., then you might wear a chain out before the rest of the engine but I'd be surprised. Otherwise, I would not expect to have to replace a properly adjusted and lubricated primary chain during the engine's normal service life. Another way to get a feel for wear is to at the gullets on the sprocket teeth. New, those are perfect arcs joined by an inverted "V" and are all symmetrical. As they wear they get more wear on the side where the pulling load is, the perfect radius starts going away, and the break between the radius and the inverted "V" shows wear. Being a retired machinist kind of guy and having the tools, I'd lay a radius gage in the gullets to see the wear. A drill shank of the right size should let you see it too. How does MMI teach you to determine chain wear? And I don't remember seeing anything about it in any of the H-D factory service manuals. Jack (Message edited by jackbequick on May 08, 2007) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Am i missing something obvious? Its in the manual. It gives you an upper end for amount of slack, and a lower end for amount of slack, and tells you to measure it at multiple places. If you can get a single tensioner adjustment setting that is lower then the upper bound, and higher then the lower bound, having measured in enough (say 5) different points of rotation, you chain is not worn out. If you can't, your chain is worn out. Pretty simple. | ||
| Firemanjim |
I have a belt primary--open -- and yup,it is combined with a turbo. Have to make a cover and clutch set-up.Not for everyone. | ||
| Mikej |
MMIGrad, As someone else questioned, I now question you as well, exactly how do you personally measure primary chain wear? I have the S2's service manual here with me and no where can I find where it gives me a specific way to measure primary chain wear apart from an indirect assumption due to not being able to adjust in the chain slack with the tensioner. On dirt bikes I'd do as Jack mentioned and lay a ruler next to the chain, or as Bomber mentioned and try to lift the chain off the rearmost portion of the rear sprocket. It's not rocket science, but neither of those methods nor anything similar to those measurement methods are in the service manual, maybe MMI gives it's graduates different service manuals. Most of us are here to learn and share and help each other, please educate and share with us, thanks. Reep, chain slack measurement and adjustment is a factor of 1) primary chain tensioner shoe wear, 2) primary chain wear, 3) main shaft sprocket wear, and 4) clutch/tranny sprocket wear. Fitz, Before you get the SV, head down to a Yamaha dealer and test sit an FZ1 as a comparison. Either one are very nice bikes. A guy down the street from me had a Buell M2, then went with a Suzuki cruiser of some sort, and now is on a Yamaha FZ1, and it seems like he likes the Yamaha. | ||
| Jamhamm |
yea since we are talking alternate bikes give the new speed triple a thought naked fun you say? hmmm, the aprilia tuono, mv agusta brutale, kawasaki z1000, yamaha fz1, suzuki sv1000, ducati monster and sport classic bmw has a holy mother of a bike [k1200r] but you're going to pay out for it, no more than you would the tuono or the brutale though and for the all out coolest bike out there? that falls on the bimota tesi 3d but back on track - buell's seem to have that hold or fold outcome you always get that guy who has 2.5 billion miles on his without a single fault then you have the camp that just has little problem after little problem fwiw i want to ride, not ride fix ride fix ride fix - and im not saying my buell hasnt been a little slice of heaven, cause she has... but ymmv... -jam |
