G oog le BadWeB | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile


Buell Motorcycle Forum » Old School Buell » Archives OSB 001 » Archive through May 11, 2007 » Best oil cooler? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ryker77
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Need to cool down my super high compression tuber to help prevent pinging. All ready adjusted timing and run 93 octane with octane booster and the coldest plugs I can buy.

Whats the most effective oil cooler?
Which is the best looking?
Which is the easiest to install and most durabale?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bomber
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had great luck with my Spurgin -- about a 20 degree drop in temps on hot (over 90) track days --

install took 30 minutes, including the obligatory beer break, and it caused no troubles at all for the two years I ran it

as for how it looks, that's very subjective
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mmmi_grad
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jagg likes to brag about thier stuff. Pricy, but some made just for buells.

I liked the one I had on my panhead. Some had a ya mounting behind the left scoop so ya didnt even see it and was protected from rocks.

Ryker are you running the fan kit too?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ryker77
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No fan kit... Don't like the looks. Might consider it after the oil cooler.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sleez
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

dr steve found a powersteering cooler, real small, about 2" x 8" or smaller and mounted it on the side near the oil tank, it works well. cheap too!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Wile_ecoyote
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Check out American Sport Bike. Al will hook you up.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I bought a cheapo from Lockhart Phillips, used a Jag Bypass valve, and also used a large BilletCool Big-Twin finned cooler behind the oil filter (got an amazing deal on it). The oil filter itself is a stainless element finned aluminum body Scotts filter, and I got an automotive sandwich adapter from Jegs. All in all I didn't spend much money, and it works great except that I still get a little pinging off the bottom in stop and go traffic.

For an easy bolt on the Jagg is good, but expensive. I prefer the side-mount radiator-style. There's a few guys that've even custom mounted XB oil coolers, too. I do the cheapest yet most effective set-up I can piece together.

No matter what you do, slow traffic will be a killer.

(Message edited by Rick_a on April 02, 2007)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sloppy
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a drop in oil temperature really preventing your high comp. from pinging when you've tried everything else (plugs, advance & fuel) since you're dealing with trying to cool the combustion chamber.

What compression ratio are you actually running? At what octane do you actually get it to stop pinging?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

since you're dealing with trying to cool the combustion chamber




A cooler cylinder head will tend to help with that.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bigblock
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A good oil cooler should HELP, it may not cure the problem entirely...
I have a Jagg on my '00 M2, stock compression ratio. I like it a lot, it made the bike run quite noticeably cooler and better, and seemed to eliminate pinging,especially on hot days in traffic. I have had it over 5 years, and it has been great.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Morgan_44
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Super high compression??? How high? 93 octane may not be enough. You may want to try 110 race fuel or Turbo Blue. Alky Injection maybe. Regardless... I think an oil cooler is a good idea anyway.

(Message edited by morgan_44 on April 05, 2007)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sloppy
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ever since I changed to the cooler plugs per factory recommendations, I've never had a pinging problem. And I live where 110 F summers are typical. 91 Octane and no oil cooler either. I researched but I never saw oil temperatures high enough to warrant it - especially considering the extra risks. If it was a track bike, sure, but not for a street bike.

I understand that you want cooler oil to take away combustion pressure heat. But to ask for the oil to take away enough heat from the fuel / air in the combustion chamber during a compression cycle is just too long and indirect of a heat path. It's rarely a help on water cooled engines when you put in a lower thermostat... it seems to work on borderline conditions, which from your timing and fuel changes doesn't sound like it is.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong... so let us know if it works for your application.

You might want to try wrapping your fuel line with reflective insulation before you get an oil cooler.

Just what is your actual compression ratio??? You should get this information before you invest more time and money. Perhaps all you need is a different set of cams?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A lower thermostat does nothing but let coolant flow through an engine at a lower temperature. They are pretty much worthless. That has nothing to do with the running temperature and is only useful during warm-up.


quote:

But to ask for the oil to take away enough heat from the fuel / air in the combustion chamber during a compression cycle is just too long and indirect of a heat path



That's like saying that using a bigger radiator in a liquid cooled vehicle won't be affective. The only limit is size restraints and the oil pump's capacity to deal with the additional volume of oil it needs to move (it can create an oil pressure loss).
He's using an N80 cam. I have a motor that is borderline on hot days in traffic on pump gas (Andrews N9 and about 10.75:1 static compression), so I know where Ryker is coming from. Once things are tuned for max power and crisp running sometimes you just need a little something more too keep detonation in reasonable control under adverse conditions. Out on the track or flowing roads/traffic I have no problems. More power=more heat. More heats means more efficient cooling/oil control is necessary. Simple.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mmmi_grad
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ever since I changed to the cooler plugs per factory recommendations, I've never had a pinging problem. And I live where 110 F summers are typical. 91 Octane and no oil cooler either. I researched but I never saw oil temperatures high enough to warrant it - UNQUOTING SLOPPY

Man thats the interesting thing in Arizona. I rode a 1957 panhead .070 over bore oversize valves with old long duration crane cam. That freaking cam was awsome and is actually famous. Cant get today. I sold it on ebay years ago with a cut down bearing area. I should have sent it to Andrews or someone to reproduce. It was sweetest cam I have ever seen in my life. Anyway the same bike with a J cam MUCH shorter duration would suffer in a humid Indiana weather. The panhead just could not breath enough at .020 over bore.

Point is these things matter, our engines can handle the heat but it depends on how they are set up. I really believe that a poorly breathing engine would sieze in the Arizona heat. But since the air is dry that maybe a plus, i dont know. Harley instructers frowned on oil coolers in Phoenix too. Unfortunatley my personal experience remains with a modified Panhead engine.

Now what gets me is my Buell, still stock likes to ping in bad traffic or some traffic on a hot day in Indiana. I really wana TPS reset and see what the maps do after that. Ofcourse the race ecm is always a plus too.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's not about breathing per se. It's mostly about dynamic compression ratio and specific output.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hodakaguy
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 01:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another vote for the Spurgin Cooler. I have one on my S1 and love it. Not only does it work great but looks bad ass also.


Hodakaguy
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sloppy
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 03:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My point with the thermostat is that in a water cooled engine you actually have cooling jackets to transfer heat direclty away from inside the head, around the valves and cylinder. On these XL engines, you only have oil on the very top of the heads and around the valve train -- and it's really designed (IMO) to cool the valve train.

But on an XB, you actually have oil jets spraying directly to cool the piston which will directly help to cool the piston -- for these engines an oil cooler would DIRECTLY help to drop piston temperatures.

If Ryker is running 95+ octane AND has to sacrifice his timing AND he's using the coldest plugs AND it's not even the heat of the summer AND still has bad pinging problem then a more direct fix may be in order. I'm still curious just what the actual compression ratio of Ryker's engine is? I wouldn't pay any more money until the compression ratio has been determined... would you?

But if you want a quality oil cooler then Spurgin does make a nice one... I just don't see an oil cooler fixing Ryker's detonation problem. For other applications the oil cooler might be the fix, but I'm just skeptical it will be the fix for this enigne. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong... but the compression ratio really should be determined regardless.

(Message edited by sloppy on April 06, 2007)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 03:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Regardless of opinions, cooler oil still cools more effectively than hotter oil. A comparison against liquid cooling is irrelevant to this topic IMO. Pre-XB buells don't have piston jets but the pistons still get splash lubricated. Obviously not as effective, but the motor is still air/oil cooled.

It would be nice to know what "super high" compression is. I was considering using an N80 myself...12:1 is ok at altitude and about 11:1 is about the limit at sea level. I've heard of people using 13:1 on street motors with no problems but I would have to see it to believe it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bigblock
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Better run a big cam with lots of overlap...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Overlap and cam lift aren't as important as the intake close point, especially when it comes to what compression ratio can be used with which grade of fuel.

The N80 has a 60 degree intake close. They don't get much later than that! (at least for something streetable)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ryker77
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 09:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

12.5 or 12.8 compression with 30degree domed pistons and the huge N80 cam. Not an engine guru- but what I read was that a domed piston/head allows for higher compression and the large overlap of the n80 cam allows for some leak of compression at lower RPMs.

Static Cranking PSI was very high. I run 92-93 octane with octane booster.

The oil cooler will help slightly and I will check into the fuel line wrapping.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sloppy
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Let me get this straight:
You "might" have a 12.5:1 or 12.8 compression ratio for a wedge head, air cooled engine and you're using pump gas with "octane boosters"? Check with your engine builder on what the ACTUAL compression ratio is -- they should have done this for you since they knew they were pushing the detonation envelope. Depending upon gasket thickness, head work (larger valves?) and piston variation you might have a 13:1. Also, it's not hard to do -- all you need is a burette and plexiglass! Compression ratio and power is not a linear relationship (the higher you go, the less rate of return you get). Talk to the engine builder and find out why they went so high or maybe this is a race bike???

Time for you to do some research. Check with a few sources (like VP Fuels or Google or Wikipedia or your local engine builder), but I'd say you're going to need a pump octane of at least 100 - you're not going to get this with pump gas and boosters. Perhaps Avgas 101 / 105 may work for you -- try it and see.

It sounds like they've built you a race bike - it's time to get to know a local race fuel dealer.

If you have an oil temperature problem fix it with an oil cooler (and with this compression ratio and ignition change, you might have an oil temp. problem). Spend $10 on a temperature probe and see what kind of oil temperatures you actually get before you spend $200 on an oil cooler.

If you have a detonation problem fix it with a fuel or compression ratio solution. Otherwise (IMO) you're wasting money (and an engine).

If you try the oil cooler bandaid then get back to us and let us know if it works...

(Message edited by sloppy on April 26, 2007)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rick_a
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Curious...what was the actual cranking pressure?

What plugs are you running? NGK DCPR9E are the coolest plugs I've found.

That'll be tough to make streetable. How much deck thickness on those pistons? Reducing CR to 11-12:1 may be the only way to really make it livable. A 20 degree dome piston probably would've worked better.

I agree with Sloppy, did the engine builder know the intended use of the motor?

No Buell uses a wedge head. They are all variations on the bathtub and hemi.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mick
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mines a harley sportster cooler, definately notice the difference on a hot day

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bad_karma
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mick
Due you by chance have the part number for the cooler. I have a XB cooler I'm going to mount to that tube. Trying to find some nice clamps. Hoping the instruction sheet has the part number for the clamps.
Joe
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mick
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bad Karma, sorry I don't, but the clamps that came with the cooler were way to big
so I used a couple of 25mm -1" galv saddles for steel conduit.
I bent them around a similiar diameter tube and then opened em out again to push over the frame, just use a bit of electrical tape to stop scratching, coat of paint and no worries
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bad_karma
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 03:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Mick
That will get me on my way. Are the clamps coated? The black piece between the shifter lever and primary cover, is that stock or did you add it?
Joe

(Message edited by bad_karma on April 28, 2007)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mick
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 06:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

no worries mate, the saddles were plain galv colour, you can get black.
I just painted them.
And the black bit is standard 02 as far as I know.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Miltosx1
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I used a oil cooler off a vfr 800 but you still have buy the oil filter adapter..
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ryker77
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You "might" have a 12.5:1 or 12.8 compression ratio for a wedge head, air cooled engine and you're using pump gas with "octane boosters"?

The joy of buying USED. Only know what the guy told me. I do know for sure the heads are 30 degree domed and the pistons are also domed. XB Nallin stage 3 heads. Base gaskets are .40 or .040 the thickest ones that Pammy recommended.


Curious...what was the actual cranking pressure?

What plugs are you running? NGK DCPR9E are the coolest plugs I've found.


Cranking pressure if I recall correctly was over 210psi. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/166579.html

Only pings on up hills with lower RPM's. If I keep the RPMS up no pinging -- err at least I can't hear it. I just ease off the throttle till I get over the hill.

Plugs are Champion
RA4HC from my research they are the coldest Champion plug.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Sloppy
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm sure the bike make awesome power (as long as you've got the octane), but if you want it for a street bike, you may want to give Nallin a call and see what pistons he recommends for pump gas.

Domed pistons "can" cause problems with good combustion (how's the gas mileage and heat?), so you may be able to win on a number of issues by going to different pistons drop your compression and get your ignition timing optimized.
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and custodians may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration