| Author | Message | ||
     Sleez |
can someone with a 96 S1 please post a pic of the orig. front motor mount bracket and/or the diagram and p/n from a service manual. thank you very much! | ||
| Rocketman |
Seconded, please?? Rocket | ||
| Bad_karma |
"  " | ||
| Bad_karma |
"  " Stock from factory | ||
| Rocketman |
Well that's the first time I recall ever noticing one that looked like that. So, does it raise the question, would such a mount create the seemingly cured bolt snapping issue when switching to a billet type mount? Looking at the above mount I'd have to say that looks way more like it's never going to cause a movement issue between the two bolts, so yes I'd guess that might well be just as good as a billet aftermarket mount. Where to get one is the next problem. Rocket Oops soz. Thanks for the pic's Karm!!! (Message edited by rocketman on February 28, 2007) | ||
| Djkaplan |
I've never seen a mount like that either. | ||
| Naustin |
Why would they have changed it? That appears so much stronger. | ||
| Doncasto |
"Why would they have changed it?" . . . Hint: I seem to recall that around 1996 Harley Davidson took over a majority ownership of Buell. Harley Davidson has many, many accountants and lawyers. The emphasis may have changed toward building as profit-able a motorcycle as they could get away with . . .  YMMV . . .and always consider the source (who has had a lifelong aversion to bean counters and attorneys, and the work they do)  | ||
| Court |
And the lawyers had been saying such nice things about you . . . I recall seeing I was to expect an e-mail from you. Didn't arrive; resend. I'll call. . . . as soon as I dig the original shop drawings out for that mount. . . now you have ME curious.  | ||
| Sleez |
i want one....what is the p/n....anyone??? thanks for the pics! | ||
| Sparky |
Be advised that the right hand side of that mount does not include an air box support if you want the '96 to be entirely original. There is a separate stamped metal part that provides that function. I believe the '97 and later mount was made lighter and had a cast-in air box support which a lot of people cut off to have a cleaner appearance when running different air cleaners. | ||
| Naustin |
I wonder if cutting off that cast in airbox support arm changes the vibration resonance of the whole part and contributes to the failures? Any thoughts? | ||
| S2pengy |
Looks like a S2 mount to me... Could someone have swapped it to eliminate the airbox arm??? | ||
| Sleez |
well...i asked for a pic of an orig 96 mount, so hopefully that is what we got??? as far as what sparky said, assuming that is correct, the 96 S1 incorporated some type of steel bracket to support the breadbox, and the fact that the X1 brackets don't have that support arm, and that there have been bolts/bracket failures on S1, S3 etc. with and without the bracket modified, causes some doubts. i am still under the impression that if the two arms are tied together somehow in a manner that allows them to share/distribute the load more evenly through both bolts, there would be a lesser instance of the failure mode we have seen. i may have some significant analysis performed on the bracket design by my eng chief to better see the causes. my thought right now is to either weld a cross bar between the two arms, assuming the cast material is high enough quality to allow this i don't know??? or machine a bracket that will span the two bolt holes in the bracket with a counter bore in the bracket that will receive a boss on the spanner, that will let them share the load better. i will know some more this week. | ||
| Court |
>>>>some significant analysis performed That bracket, well chronicled in engineering journals and the current text book in use by several engineering schools, has been the subject of extreme analysis. For one of the funniest stories ever to come out of Buell engineering don't let me forget to tell you about an argument between two engineers over the failure mode of that bracket and what happened when, before the eyes of some amazed foreign visitors ensconsed in the old secret AMC Pacer proving grounds, the Red Headed Cosmonaut launched what, two years hence, would be known as an M-2 Cyclone skyward on one of the VERY severe vertical drops. . . folks, I don't mean like lofted this mule 2' in the air I mean REALLY airborn! It's a great bracket that performs PRECISELY as intended. | ||
| Sleez |
court, i don't doubt for one second that the bracket on its own was well engineered and designed within specs. but, we no doubt have an issue causing a failure of the bolts or bolt that leads to catastrophic failure of the other bolt and likely the bracket. now i am pretty sure the bracket isn't CAUSING the issue, rather allowing some other loads to be shifted into a plane or resonance maybe that allows the bolt to fatigue and break. maybe some other factor is promoting this failure somehow, but with the myriad changes that occur to every bike in the way of exhaust, polishing etc. it is hard to say definitively what is doing it. now maybe if everyone were to leave their bike 100% stock, that bracket and its associated bolt(s) will never break??? but who does that? my only hope is that one of these earlier brackets are still available and will be enough overkill to make the issue go away. i am not pushing any blame towards buell or hd, just want to fix this ONE time, as economically as possible, and i don't feel comfortable that the stock bracket with new bolts and the correct procedure will be bulletproof. the upgrade was performed on this bike before i bought it as per the hd/buell dealer that looked it up, it lasted a little over 4 years and maybe 5000 miles. i hope to do better. it is seemingly common knowledge that any of the bikes with aftermarket brackets has not suffered this failure....maybe they have and we haven't heard about it...but i think if it had happened that someone would have spoke up. then again, maybe there aren't nearly enough of them on the road yet to get good statistical data? (likely the case) either way, i want to fix it one time and be happy riding my buells as i usually tend to be. BTW court, thanks for all your support on this and all issues buell! | ||
| Court |
I probably should have been clear and stated I didn't think anyone was pushing blame. That bracket was designed, quite literally, by the folks who "wrote the book" on finite element analysis. Buell leads the industry (automotive and motorcycle) in integrating analysis and production. The only thing at Buell that wasn't analyzed was Erik and I. . . . and can you imagine two souls in more need of analysis? | ||
| Doncasto |
Court said, "And the lawyers had been saying such nice things about you . . ." Oh kwap! I sure hope Vic hasn't been reading BWB . . .If she has, she knows she is the rarest of exceptions to my attorney diatribes . . .doesn't she? Me thinks I may have ruined any chance of stopping off on Staten Island for the foresee-able future. Mail resent . . . | ||
| Aaomy |
hey sleez. the pictured mount looks identical to the original s2 motor mount.. the part number from my s2 parts book is 16271-94Y .. i could post a picture of my original s2 one but it would look exactly the same as the one above.. hope this helps in your quest!!!! | ||
| Sleez |
thanks aaron, i just called the local buell dealer, the only 96 book he has is an S2, and it states the p/n is 16450-94y, can't be as this is the p/n for the front head....aaarrrggghhhh!!! hopefully you are right, i am sure you are, now i'll call him back and see what the computer tells him as far as availability. | ||
| Sleez |
ok just called, new p/n is L0149.8A ($122.95) still available, vendor direct, whatever that means??? so aaron, there is no little appendage for the aircleaner mount, correct? thanks everyone | ||
| Rick_a |
That's what my original mount looked like, too. My bolts and cylinder head still broke. | ||
| Bad_karma |
Naustin I did exactly that on the 99 S3 when I shifted to the CF air cleaner. Haven't noticed any addition vibrations. Recent inspections how ever exposed a broken motor mount bolt. So I will have to keep an eye out this year. Joe | ||
| Bad_karma |
Sleez That is the original mount that came with the bike when I bought it new in july of 96. I have a 96 S1 parts book at home have the part nuber for you tommorrow night. Joe (Message edited by bad_karma on February 28, 2007) | ||
| Sleez |
hi rick, that is the first account i've come across that a webbed bracket still broke bolts, damn, i am on another mission. here is my latest spin; the F911 bolts are tempered at 716 deg F, i am betting the head gets hotter than that at the bolt bosses, if so, then the bolts are very likely being heat cycle fatigued. anyone have access to a way to measure accurately the head temp near the bolt boss, either with a thermocouple or at least an infrared thermometer??? thanks F911 bolts are 8640 alloy. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Lee (Sleez), I believe you are on to something here as I have posted several other times; that is, that the issue is probably not the strength or integrity of the mount but rather of the bolt. I have personally experienced bolt breakage of high strength bolts (grade 8) when subjected to a considerable amount of vibration as the only issue which we definetely have with our HD v-twins. Grade 8 bolts have a higher amount of carbon to be able to harden them and that can lead to crystalization and breakage from vibration. In many high vibration uses various industries have gone either to softer ribbed bolts (grade 5), rivets, or stainless bolts as in the aircraft industry especially in the WW2 era with their high vibration warbirds. I personally am an advocate of stainless bolts with some way to secure the nuts, or in this case the bolts, from loosening, especially safety wiring to keep vibration in check as much as possible. As I stated before; the major reason for grade 8 bolts is the extra torque to strengthen a shear connection of mating surfaces which we don't need or want as we are going into an aluminum head. Just my non-engineering experience and opinion FWIW. Bob | ||
| Aaomy |
sleez here is a e bay auction you should look at.. part number 16271-96Y. personally if i was going to spend that much.. i would kick in a little more and purchase a billet one or have one of the guys where you work do it goverment job style.. the al will probably run you seventy dollars but billet will be much stronger than the cast stock unit.. just trying to help. aaron ps probably could find one a lot cheaper if you want to keep looking.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BUELL-FRONT-ISOLATO R-MOUNT-S1-Lightning_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35 568QQihZ002QQitemZ4641178115QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1 V | ||
| Sleez |
thanks aaron, wow that is high dollar, i think i found one for 40.00, will let everyone know. | ||
| Rick_a |
I didn't help that the heads back then had very little support around the cast mount on one side. That's been remedied in the current XB/XL heads. | ||
| Bad_karma |
The 96 S1 part catalog list the mount as part number 16271-96Y, 16271-97Y and for international only 16298-97Y. Joe |
