| Author | Message | ||
     Interex2050 |
Recently I aquired/saved an abused 2000 m2 to fix up for a friend. -[just a side rant] One of the previous owners decided that it would be "cool and trendy" to install a street fighter style seat (which happens to be just a little bit bigger then a mountain bike seat) and in the process slaughtered the rear of the frame. -Well anyway, the problem: When one tried to start her up she just buzzes. Which led me to conclude that the starter isn't getting enough juice (which turned out to be the case). When I do a jump start she starts up right away and runs fine. So the question really is what is dead the battery or the stator. At this moment I'm leaning and hoping that its the battery. And after running for a while the battery doesn't have enough juice to turn her over, and the last time I checked completely dead. Can anyone give me some pointers? Thanks | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Jump it and get it running. Disconnect the jumper and measure the voltage at the battery. With the engine running at 2000 rpm, the voltage should be about 14. | ||
| Interex2050 |
The voltage reading was 11.4 volts. Although I am not certain about the rpm as his bike is not equipped with a tach, nor can I do it by sound as he has a V&H pipe. But I did turn the choke on... | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Well,,,,cold start with full-choke will have you idling very close to 2K (based on no empirical data and just my experience with my M2.) G2 | ||
| Tramp |
dude- rev the thing slightly. does it get to 14 volts? sounds like it won't.just replace the battery, a new one rarely hurts. did you charge the example you have? you don't have to be at 2000 rpm exactly. sound slike the batt.'s shot | ||
| Interex2050 |
Alright I will try to rev it and see if it jumps up. I am assuming that the fellow that we purchased the machine from charged the battery prior to sale. | ||
| Tramp |
just rev it a bit...twist that throttle about a quarter of an inch ...in these situations, IF you've charged the batt., i consider new batteries prudent... | ||
| Interex2050 |
Well, this time around the voltage with the choke on went down to 11.2 volts and when I would give it a nice twist of the throttle it would only go up to 11.3 volts. Which is still .1 volts lower then last time with just the choke on. Any ideas? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Sounds like a bad charging system to me. Open the inspection cover on the primary (smaller one near top) and smell in there for a foul burning smell. If the stator goes bad in there, it makes a nasty odor. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Found my book! OK here are some more fun facts about the stator: the stator should float with respect to ground. It should measure .2 to .4 ohms if you measure the AC output of the stator with no load at 2000 RPM, it should be 38V-52V. Oh! and make sure your regulator is grounded well. | ||
| Interex2050 |
Alrighty, sounds like a plan (well at least the next step). BTW does anyone have the schematics for the 2000 M2 saved on the computer? Thanks to everyone for helping out | ||
| Jackbequick |
The two thing you have not checked yet are: 1 - Battery condition - if you can, pull the battery leads off (negative first) and put a charger on it. A 1 to 1.5 Amps overnight charge would be good. Then check the voltage, it should be like in the 13.8 to 14.4 range if battery is taking a full charge. Let the battery set for 6-8 hours and check the voltage again to see if it is not holding a charge. 2 - Voltage regulator output voltage. This should be up around 13.8-14.2 Volts or so. The quickest way to check this is to have a not fully charged battery in the bike and then start the bike to see if it comes up to charging voltage. So if your battery (engine off) is 11.4V or so, you could jump start it and pull the jump battery off. Then check the voltage across the battery terminals with the engine running at 2,000 RPM or so and you should see the 13.8-14.2 Volts charging voltage out of the VR. If you are seeing 11.4V or less, the bike is running off the battery and not charging. The VR can also be checked at an inline male/female bullet connector located down under the oil pump (hard to get at and a PITA to unplug) or where the charging lead connects to the 30A breaker on the (-) side of the battery. Email me at jacker at midmaine dot com and I'll try to scan my schematic and send it to you. It won't be a small file if that is a problem for you. Get yourself the 99491-00Y Service Manual and the 99572-01Y (-01Y !not! the 99572-00Y) Parts Manual and you will never regret it. The SM is excellent. It details a lot of things that are so far from intuitive that working on the bike without it will haunt you unless you are either the smartest or luckiest guy in the world. Jack | ||
| Interex2050 |
Well its starting to sound like the "charging system" is shot. From I have gathered from the responses so far that could include dying/dead voltage regulator (recitifier), or the stator. And now that its raining I think further testing might have to be put on hold. | ||
| Sleez |
check all the wires to the VR, mine had a chafed main wire from the VR behind the cam cover, fixed that and all was good! | ||
| Tramp |
Jeeziz-H!- Will you change the battery, first???? a bad (sulfated) battery is far more common than a bad stator or bad VR. CHANGE YOUR Battery. The VERY first step of any/all electrical system checks is battery condition. You've skipped the first step. Why do people on these boards insist on skipping steps in deference to "trendy" "stator failure" misdiagnoses? this is a weekly thing around here........ | ||
| Jackbequick |
Wouldn't it make even more sense to trouble shoot the battery first and then replace it if it is bad? Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think a lot of people here look to the stator before they look to the battery for two reasons: 1) We have personal first hand experience with blowing stators but not batteries on our personal bikes. 2) Testing the stator to get a conclusive "it's blown" answer is ***very*** easy, even for people that are not electrically or mechanically inclined. Testing the battery to get that answer is much harder. Tramp... did you *really* tell somebody to just go replace a part (battery) without diagnosing the problem? What's the matter man, you feeling OK?  | ||
| Interex2050 |
Jack thanks for the schematics. Well now that I can see what is going on, here is my plan of action... Im going to measure the AC voltage from the stator going to the recitifier. Then I will measure the DC voltage that is comming out of the recitifier (VR) and see if they match up in any way. If my theory is correct (that the voltage regulator is nothing more then a full bridge recitifier, due to that giving it more throttle increases the voltage at the batt terminals [so in theory it shouldnt actually "regulate" the voltage just convert it]) the voltage should be equal between the AC in and the DC out. Then if I find some differences or no voltage comming out at all then I will know that there is either a short or a component failure. Then I will test the wiring and if that passes I will replace the faulty component. Im hopeful that my plan has limited flaws, if you spot any please inform me. Thanks | ||
| Tramp |
"Tramp... did you *really* tell somebody to just go replace a part (battery) without diagnosing the problem?" Absolutely not- the guy actually says his voltage, AT THE BATTERY, was UNDER 12 (!). further in my post I said: "The VERY first step of any/all electrical system checks is battery condition. " the owner also says "I am assuming that the fellow that we purchased the machine from charged the battery prior to sale." And I replied: "...in these situations, IF you've charged the batt., i consider new batteries prudent..." (I was referring to an under-12 v reading at the abtt. under twist) A battery, no matter how you look at it, IS a replaceable, wear item. You'll notice I indicated replacemnt as an after act of testing/charging. My own feeling, based on the Buells and Sporties that have passed through my shop(s) over the years, is that many of you internet buellers are experiencing False Positive Results to your exhaustive stator checks. As I've said, i have hundereds of thousands of miles on my factory stator, and i've gone through several batteries. many riders allow their batteries to leak down over protracted periods, not realizing that, even with a fresh charge, sulfating damage has been done, and it increases at an increasing rate with each successive drain. this "new owner" knows not the condition of HIS battery, and he further "assumes' the old owner "charged it for resale" (yikes). In this situation, I certainly see the extremely simple replacement of a very cheap part (battery) as being most prudent prior to further testing. but, then again, being that this is based upon experience and logic, as opposed to internet forum perusal, I'm probably wrong  | ||
| Tramp |
Incidentally, my cost for Buell batteries, at "Interstate" , is $30-, give or take a buck. | ||
| Reepicheep |
My apologies Tramp, I did not correctly infer the caveats that precluded your replace recommendation. We don't disagree. If the battery was trickle charged for a decent interval with a known good charger and a known good connection and tested off bike with a known good connection of known good probes on a known good meter, then the only reasonable inferrence is that the battery is bad. Likewise, if somebody cuts maybe 4 cable ties, pulls a connector from under the cam cover, and measures resistance between any stator pin and ground that is under 100 megaohms, I *know* the stator or associated wiring is toast. The meter is working, the leads are good, the connection was solid. I am performing an easy test for a positive, which I always prefer over more time consuming tests for negatives. Testing for an open winding is harder, as they need to measure infinity between two of the stator pins, but is still arguably a much easier and reliable procedure then trying to test a battery. But we agree, the problem should be diagnosed before parts are replaced, and the battery test, the stator test, and even the voltage regulator test are so simple to do with such cheap tools I don't think there is any reason not to do all three tests. Is that $30 interstate battery absorbed glass matt like the factory battery? Or is it a plain old bike battery? | ||
| Katzusmc |
I had the same problem 2 weeks ago. Changed the battery, and then took it in for service. the "pro" told me the bike wasn't charging. But i've ridden it almost every day except for sunday and yesterday and it fired right up every time with no trouble. Just change the battery, its most likely old and a good possibility of being the orignal one. whats it gonna hurt? | ||
| Tramp |
plain ol' bike bat-tchree.... each one lasts me an average of 5 good years, great CCAs for -20 starts, etc.... the likelihood of the battery on the 6-year old buell being bad is pretty high as is... | ||
| Jackbequick |
Peter said "Well now that I can see what is going on, here is my plan of action..." Glad the schematics helped. And your plan sounds like a plan. Here is a earlier post from the KV that has all the voltages and resistance values you need for reference purposes. Note that earlier post was by Reepicheep (aka Reep), he is one of our main electrical gurus here and especially good on M2's. I believe Reep has experienced first hand everthing that can possibly ever go wrong on a Cyclone. Good luck! Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
LOL! Fair is fair... I have also experienced just about everything that can go *right* on a Cyclone. It was a wonderful bike, I miss it, and I would not trade my ownership experience for anything. of course, the XB9SX is even better, but thats a different conversation, and takes nothing away from the M2 | ||
| Tramp |
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand feel free to start with the farghin' bat-tchreeee. just start with a new one, please. better yet- please post all of your results, here | ||
| Interex2050 |
Well I am in the process of obtaining a battery charger, so that shall soon be tested. The stator passed the resistance test either stator wire to ground has no connectivity and there is .5 ohms between the two output wires. Also the wires leading to the 30 amps fuse from the VR pass the test. So now I just need to test the stator voltage,batt and the VR. To test the VR I am going to see what the output voltage is and if its the 14ish "charge" volts then the its certain the batt is dead. btw: the battery is not the original its an autocraft replacement. Also: Thank you very much for the link with the measurements. Very handy, not to mention it proved me wrong about the voltage regulator simply being a recitifier. (Message edited by interex2050 on September 21, 2005) | ||
| Tramp |
testing anything but continuity, without a tested-"good" battery, is a waste of time. if your battery's not putting out the correct voltage, you won't have correct values anywhere else... | ||
| Grndskpr |
testing anything but continuity, without a tested-"good" battery, is a waste of time. if your battery's not putting out the correct voltage, you won't have correct values anywhere else I am not going to totally agree with that, but i am just a shade tree mech, and not a very good one, so instead of telling someone there wrong i will ask instead: Tramp, what does a battery have to do with testing the out put voltage of a stator before the VR??? How do the values change on this item?? Also how does it change the value after the VR witha battery disonected, or is that even a valid test?? Curious, because maybe my testing procedure is off thanks R | ||
| Grndskpr |
Oh and so i preface the statement, when my stator failed, i also thought it was the battery, so i changed it, and since some of us have to buy at retail, a battery can run upwards of $89 bucks from the dealer, while a new stator from the dealer i belive is around 125, plus parts and time, had i checked the stator as well as the battery i might not have spent the extra cash on the battery, that is still being used on another bike Hence my reasoning behind testing the stator. Since it appears you have yet to see one thats gone bad, i would be happy to take a picture of mine(i saved it) just so you can see how small the cut can be, and how ridding and temp. could effect voltage bleed sometimes but not all the time just a thought R |
