| Author | Message | ||
     Sjh |
I am about to install a power commander on my 00 X1 in order to install a full force exhaust. I am wanting to know if I should install the hi performance O2 sensor? I have read that you can get an aftermarket one from most part stores that crosses to the Hi performance ones from DynoJet. Also, if there is anyone who has any experience with these, please advise. | ||
| Hotrodsportster |
The "hi performance" 02 sensor allows the PC to control fuel while below 3000 rpm give or take a few. If you do not run that sensor, the PC does not control how the fuel curve is handled. Incidentally, look in KV for a Ford TBird part number, getting it from a parts house is about 25% cheaper than getting it form K&N or Dyna Jet. The 02 sensor will also allow the PC to better control drivability from 0 - 3000 +/-. Enjoy | ||
| Sjh |
does the bike need to be dyno tuned after installation? | ||
| Oldog |
That would be the best way, With out the Hi-per sensor you MAY find the basic map on the p.c. webb site, usualy they will have 2 maps 1 w & 1 wo the O2 sensor for each configuration. ( i have the Force winder and the Super Trapp,) I loaded the factory map for this arrangement works good, plugs nice lite grey ashy deposits, Nada on the electrode, starts good, runs solid AFTER warmup, Sjh I posted dyno numbers in the Kv for this if you are interested I assume that the motor is other wise stock if not you may want to consider a carb depending on what you have done. | ||
| Sjh |
I currently am running a forcewinder, buell pro series slip on and XB heads. I am also looking to add the Race ECM when I do the force exhaust and power commander. I have looked at the maps that Dynojet has and I think the ones they have listed would probably work. The place that I am taking it to is going to try the one Dynojet has listed, but suggested that he may just customize a map. Will post results in a week or so when I get everything installed and get some results. | ||
| Deltacruiser |
I'm no expert on this, but I don't think you will need the race ECM and a Power Commander. Usually, one or the other will do the trick. | ||
| Oldog |
Don't know for sure but If he re-cams it later the ecm may not work well enough in the mapped areas, Seth In order to properly tune you sled the shop must have a dyno that can place the bike into a steady state mode at different loads (simulates riding) and it will have some kind of fuel air monitor as well, I have spent a lot of time reading about this while I am no expert there is someone that you may be able to "talk" with We have a board member I believe that his "ID" is "craigster" If you can "talk to him" you may find it quite usefull, he can give you some info on dyno setup, (follow the link in his profile! its way cool!) he's a motor man fer sure! (Message edited by oldog on August 04, 2005) try here http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=47623&post=469000#POST469000 (Message edited by oldog on August 04, 2005) | ||
| Sjh |
Thanks for the heads up on not needing the race ecm, that is nice to know. If anyone else is familiar with that please let me know. The place that is doing the bike is a dyno shop that is a certified dynojet dealer and familiar with the Power commander and Buells. I have heard some good things about this shop, so I am going to cough up the money and get it done right instead of trying to guess on my own. Thanks to those who have given me tips so far, and feel free to add anything you have forgotten to mention. Anyone else running the full force set up? Good / bad results?? | ||
| Sjh |
Is is true that I would be able to just run a Race Ecm instead of dealing with the PCIII? Would it compensate enough for the forcewinder and force pipe?? When I spoke to force, the tech thought that the Race ECM was not enough and suggested the PC. If I can go with just the Race ECM and a TPS reset and get the same results I would rather go that route. Would the PC give me better results or better ridability in the lower RPMs? Sorry for all the questions, but just don't want to go one route and find that I should have went another. | ||
| Chasespeed |
The race ecm SHOULD work... I am running one with race header(stock until I find a powder coater), American Sport Bike race air filter, and D&D. The PC could help you with low RPM, IF, and only IF you have a dyno tuner who knwos what he/she is doing.....as tey could smooth the fuel map... I could be wrong...but ... My 2 cents Chase | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I will add my 3 cents to round it out to a full nickel. I agree with Chase on this. Try to use the exhaust with the race ECM. If it's too lean after a tank of gas, then go for it. My ECM has adapted to the stock pipe and also a "daytona boss" which actually sounds a lot like Chase's D&D. It is a straight through 2.5" diameter glasspack with no glass in it. I think your brain can adapt good enough to make you happy. | ||
| Tom_b |
A couple friends with buells have had the PC on their bikes. One took his off after about a year of messing with it the other still has his and is sorry he put it on. the problem they had are even after dyno tune and getting them set the ecm tries to override the PC and knocks the settings out. I would not get a PC unless i had a seriously modified fuelie bike. If they are so great how come they quit making them for buells. I have a race ecm, Rizoma airfilter and V&H muffler and mine does better than my friends with the same stuff except a PC, less headaches too! Also the race ecm is part of the buell race kit that comes with a header, muffler and hi flo filter unlees the header you are putting is one bad S.O.B. why go with the PC? Talk to Dave at Appleton about this he will probably tell you the same thing (Message edited by Tom_b on August 05, 2005) | ||
| Sjh |
The main reason that I was going with the PC is that the tech at Force suggested it, and said that the Race ECM would not compensate enough. From what I gathered, the biggest advantage to the PC is better drivability under 3K. | ||
| Oldog |
Seth: the power commander comes in basicaly 2 flavors diddle the input- PC2, Diddle the out put- PC3 What has resulted with the install of the unit on my bike is that the "Pinging" under hard accel has stopped. If you are not familiar with the pc3 it allows you to control the pulse duration to the injectors, longer and shorter in realtion to the throttle positon from a map [ Rich / Lean ] the o2 option gives better control I am told. I can't comment on the "ECM knocking out the settings" beyond on the surface the idea of the ecm altering it's out put to control the system makes some sense, that is what it's supposed to do. changing the settings not so sure. the pc 3 with the exception of having to tap the TPS line is Plug & Pray er PLAY its easy to install (sort of)to do it right you will have to monkey with [ unbolt ]the tail section to pass the connectors thru It may be worth the time to ask some other owners as well, I would like to try a race ECM but dont want to part with that kind of money now. My setup with out the hi per o2 sensor works ok after warmup, I'm thinking that I may wait a few more years and see if an aftermarket fuel control becomes available (not a carb) there is one other alternative to efi, get out the wallet, chek this out http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/efi_project_00.htm (Message edited by oldog on August 06, 2005) | ||
| Buellitt |
Hey, I joined just for this very discussion! I have a 00' s3 (bought used) with force pipe, and open style k&n air assy. and race ecm. It ran well enough, but really had power surges while accelerating. I added the force "fish scale" look baffle (worthless)and a power commander, which I couldn't attach to my computer, or really even understand. Then I read about the low rpm band and o2 sensor, so added that as well. Backfiring and low speed stutter got worse. I finally found a mech. willing to work with it, and discovered a broken exhaust bolt on the rear head (now fixed). The problem is just as bad though. Do you think I warped a valve riding with the rear exhaust flange leak? Will THIS repair finally solve my problem? Should I try to further baffle the open pipe for more back-pressure? I am ready to sell this thing v/s throwing good money after bad. I also have a carb. M2, and its looking sweeter every day! | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
It's unlikely that a loose header would cause any damage. If the header is lose, the oxygen sensor will have a crappy ground and therefore give crappy data to your brain. Cover the easy/cheap stuff first. Look for chafed wires. Make sure the intake air is placed in the intake and not just lashed to the frame somewhere. This is said so much that it's a cliche now but.... Did you have a dealer that is not monkeys reset your TPS? | ||
| Blake |
I doubt that the exhaust flange leak would cause the valve to warp. But to be sure, leakdown and compression tests should verify integrity of valve seating/sealing or indicate what and where a problem may lie. The one single best course of action that I see would be to take your S3 to a reputable dyno tuner who knows well how to adjust the PC. Be CERTAIN that the dyno tuner has and regularly utilizes the ability to read air/fuel ratio via exhaust gas analyzer or wide band oxygen sensor. You sure don't want to be running lean in the heat of the Summer. Big danger of melting a hole in a piston, which is really really bad to do. It really is worth the investment to put your bike in the hands of a competent dyno tuner. Be sure to get ALL the data including A/F ratio and come back and post your before and after results. If all goes well, I'm hoping you'll find yourself riding a bike with an entirely new lease on life. | ||
| Pammy |
Actually the PC doesn't really do anything for you at the lower rpms. The 'performance' O2 sensor is 'heated'(extra wire) so it is up to temp sooner and comes into play sooner.All the O2 sensor does is measure the air/fuel ratio and that info goes into the ecm. A leak in the exhaust would alter that information. If the head bolts were loose the information the ecm receives wouldn't be constant. Unfortunately the FI on the older Buells is a bit lacking in the stability department. Some people can live with, others can't. I, myself, switched to carb. If I knew how to do anything but type, I would show you some of the tuning instructions from Dyno jet. I will see what I can do about it when I get to the office. (Message edited by pammy on August 11, 2005) | ||
| Pammy |
Oh and to answer your original question I have read that you can get an aftermarket one from most part stores that crosses to the Hi performance ones from DynoJet. I beleive that it's a Toyota part number, but the Dyno Jet part is already neatly wired and packaged with the proper connectors. Heck Al over at American Sport Bike would probably be able to hook you up.  | ||
| Buellitt |
Thanks everyone for the advise. I forgot to mention the values of my compression check were 180 rr, 194 fr. So I was thinking maybe the o2 sensor was still getting a fresh breeze past a warped valve to destroy the readings. Your opinions are encouraging though. I'm frustrated because I have had it to 2 harley shops that supposedly had the ability to tune dynojet, but didn't do anything but charge me. The last shop replaced my ignition switch saying it had too much resistance, and could be limiting my injectors...Any good shops on the east coast? I'm in northern Va. now. I will also try to get the temp sensor into the air cleaner housing, because it IS tied to the frame just above the filter. All wires are in perfect shape. I do hope I can fix this thing, it isn't rideable as is. | ||
| Oldog |
buellitt the comp readings may be outa spec dont have the fsm here to look if you can wait I will check the book when i return home (15th) and send the spec to you. 1 connectivity p.c. to computer IF you lap top does not have a db9 socket try an electronics shop for a usb to serial converter 50.00$ or less 2. IF Pammy did not sqawk the variations in the comp it may be a non issue, but what Blake said 3. there are a number of minor mechanical maladies that will cause rough runnung down low the fsm indicates that the ecm is running on the "map" down low, things to check intake seals engine temprature sensor ( not intake air temp) and yes the tps reset there is a way to check ecm codes for troubles I posted a stripped down version check the archive OR see the X-1 files the key switch on my bike went bad I caught it when the tail light started comming and going it is important I posted a bit on the techno research software check it out its 300$ but well worth it IF you can connect to the ecm Oh yeah plugs and wires (Message edited by oldog on August 11, 2005) | ||
| Pammy |
I don't know nothin about no sqawk... If you want to find out where/if you have a leaky valve. You can hear the leak when the air is introduced into the combustion chamber with the piston at top dead center on the compression stroke. If you have a tweaked or bent intake valve, you will hear the air coming out the throttle body or intake manifold. If it is an exhaust valve, of course the air will come out of the (you guessed it) exhaust. If it is a faulty ring, you will hear it at the crankcase vent. You can also take a good look at your plugs. Sometimes they will look merely sooty even with quite a bit of blow by. But you can lift the sealing washer at the base of the thread and oil will collect there. If the plugs are new you may have a more difficult time distinguishing the oil deposit. Shiny, bluish/black is usually sign of oil. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..try an electronics shop for a usb to serial converter 50.00$ or less..." Or eBay if you use that. I've bought two of them there for about $15 shipped. A search for "serial USB" will bring up hundreds for sale. Jack | ||
| Oldog |
Pammy: sqwak=to point out a flaw, or a problem, this is common slang for air craft, no inference about any thing else, You have my respect btw nice scooter pix on yer site M'am if its not a closley guarded secret what is the RWH? | ||
| Pammy |
Well I was just a little confused about the sqwak comment. I've been accused of squawking in the past. (Message edited by pammy on August 12, 2005) | ||
| Pammy |
The HP of my X1 would be 157 or so with the Lectron carb. With the new carb, it should have over 160. Thanks for askin' I believe there is an old dyno chart for my bike on the Cycle-Rama web site as well. | ||
| Blake |
 Good grief. It's hitting 150 RWHP before 7 grand but keeps right on pulling through 7,600 RPM! If I set the rev limiter at say 6,000 RPM, would that engine live well and long? | ||
| Blake |
SJ, I'm pretty sure the folks at Force are right. Pretty sure you'll need the PC or techlusion EFI augmentation module. | ||
| Oldog |
Pammy!  (the spikes)is that what it looks like some wheel spin on the dyno? that is amazing! am i correct a standard sportster (pre 03)is about 75 rwh?, that would be a 100% power increase,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! while I will never have that kind of fire breather, I absolutely just have to ask whats it like to ride ? how fussy is it? | ||
| Hotrodsportster |
The High Preformance Dybn Jet 02 Sensor is a mid 90's Ford Thunderbird part. The X files have a part number listed. If you can not locate the number, I'll try to when I get back to NC on Monday. Pammy: Hello from the land of NASCAR. The Metzlers are on their last "threads", time for some new rubber. Will give you a call in a week or so, Regards to Wes. Tom (Message edited by Hotrodsportster on August 13, 2005) (Message edited by Hotrodsportster on August 13, 2005) |
