| Author | Message | ||
     Ratbuell |
My bigger debate is what to feed it. Damn 5.56/.223 is expensive! .223 not so much, but the 5.56 is pricey (compared to 9mm, anyway). I've run a ton of wolf/tulammo through my Hellcat and my XD-S (steel case) with no issues; may get some of that just to get oriented with the AR, and when brass pricing comes down start stocking some of that. Curious question for those who have experience - noticable difference between 5.56 and .223? I know 5.56 is "hotter", just curious if its worth the extra $$ for plinking and practice... | ||
| Rick_a |
As someone with experience clearing structures with a 20" fixed stock rifle, I'd say it would be fine for the task. I'd always choose a long gun over a hand gun. A long gun in the form of a centerfire rifle or shotgun is far more effective. Most of the better defense ammo will be labeled .223. Suitable stuff in a pinch is deer or hog hunting stuff. The varmint stuff lacks sufficient penetration. 5.56 is weatherproof. It is sealed on both ends and the primers are crimped in place to ensure that there's no possibility of them falling out after firing (one of the only things that will render an AR trigger group inoperable aside from an outright parts failure). Most 5.56 ammo is a 55 grain FMJBT. M193 has more consistent fragmentation than the 62 grain M855/SS109 stuff. Those were specifically designed to penetrate soviet helmets and the soft armor (flack jackets?) of the time over combat distances. They have a slightly longer effective range, all things being equal. M193 does better in slower twist rates from 1/12 to 1/8. It works fine in 1/7, though isn't ideal. M855 is better in faster twist rates...typically 1/7 to 1/9. 1/7 was chosen by the military in order to stabilize tracers in arctic conditions. MK-262 is good stuff if you can find it. It is a 77 grain open tip boat tail match round designed for military applications. The tip is open not for expansion, but because a reverse drawn jacket can be made more consistent, round to round. Because the jacket is thin it reportedly fragments to impressive distances. I believe twist rates need to be 1/7 or 1/8. On the steel cased stuff, if it is a NATO chamber and not a hybrid or match chamber it should work fine with the stuff. | ||
| Rick_a |
Also, 5.56 uses a thicker case that is annealed around the shoulder and neck. The bullets also have a cannulure where crimped. If the bullets tumble without fragmentation they can break at the cannulure...at least I've seen that a lot with M855. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.americanfirearms.org/223-vs-5-56-a-com parison/ ... an AR-15 barrel marked as chambered in .223 will have a shorter throat into the rifling than that of a 5.56 NATO standardized barrel (something that first appeared in 1979) which usually has about .125 inches of additional freebore. This difference can cause increased pressure when 5.56mm NATO cartridges are fired in a .223 Remington chamber. For instance, when using “hot” 5.56 NATO rounds in a .223 Rem-marked rifle with a tighter chamber than what the military round was designed for, pressures can push into the 70,000 psi area in worse case scenarios since the mil-spec round doesn’t have the extra length to expand into, which isn’t good, especially in long term use. ...Generally speaking, while you can fire .223 ammo in a firearm labeled for 5.56, it may not be safe to do the opposite and fire 5.56 ammo in a gun labeled for .223 as the latter could have a tighter chamber. So if your Gun is marked 5.56 you can use .223 but not vice versa. Most will tell you it might not hurt but blah blah safety! RTFM. | ||
| Ratbuell |
All good info, thank you. Yes, it's labeled 5.56 so I can feed it whatever. | ||
| Ratbuell |
VERY happy... Picked it up this afternoon. Stag 3-gun Elite 18" lefty. 1/8 twist 416R fluted stainless heavy barrel, VG6 Gamma muzzle, Geissele 4.5 lb Super Dynamic 3-gun trigger. https://www.stagarms.com/stag-15-3-gun-elite-lh-ss-18-in-5-56-rifle-bla-sl-10r-stag15010619.html I paired it with a Sig Romeo MSR so I could run a box through it before I brought it home. I love my new toy  9 rounds sighting in the Romeo (30', firing from a bench). Out of the box, it was close - first round went low around 5:00. Second shot was right next to it, as I learned how much (little) the dot moved with each click on the adjuster. Gradually got 'er dialed in - the target is a 4" stick-on reactive:  5 rounds from a bench, after dialing in the Romeo (same size target, same 30'):  And, 6 rounds at 30', standing:  I had to bring the target home after every shot, when I was sighting in the Romeo...I need to get the Juliet magnifier for my old eyes! All in all though? A good first box. Very happy. Super-tame gun, easy to shoot, loveloveLOVE that trigger (it also came with a 3.5# spring, but I like the 4.5 just fine so far). Now to learn disassemble-and-clean processes  | ||
| Rick_a |
Keep in mind that due to sight offset anything under 36 yards should hit low. The goal should be a 0-300 yard "battle sight" zero. At 25 yards that's about three quarters of an inch low. At 36 or fifty yards that's point of aim equaling point of impact. That should facilitate direct hits to 300 yards and center mass to 400. 500 yards and beyond requires some adjustment or hold over. As far as maintenance...just don't let the gun run dry (without lube). If it feels gritty when you charge it...clean it. AR's have a reputation for being finicky with cleanliness...but in reality they'll keep running almost indefinitely as long as they're lubed. It's my favorite and currently only centerfire rifle, though they do get kinda boring over time. I remember when being issued an M16A2 was a dream come true  There aren't many like it, but this one is mine.  20210325_102651 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr After trying all manner of muzzle devices through the years, it's hard to be the 'ol A2. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Yeah, I need nicer weather so I can pace out 50 yds at home and do a true setting. Yesterday was mainly an acquaintence shoot, getting to know the trigger and the recoil. I'm already looking at the Juliet3 magnifier - seems they're sold in sets, so if anyone wants a Romeo MSR let me know as it looks like I'll have a spare! It'll help me recoup some of my costs...I also need to get a light, and some metal flip-up sights as backups... | ||
| Ratbuell |
Yeah, I need nicer weather so I can pace out 50 yds at home and do a true setting. Yesterday was mainly an acquaintence shoot, getting to know the trigger and the recoil. I'm already looking at the Juliet3 magnifier - seems they're sold in sets, so if anyone wants a Romeo MSR let me know as it looks like I'll have a spare! It'll help me recoup some of my costs...I also need to get a light, and some metal flip-up sights as backups... | ||
| Ducbsa |
Let us know what sights you get. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Jeez, this is making my head spin. Going to go metal not polymer. Trying to find non-Chinesium. May go with 45 degree offset so I don't have to worry about red dot height compatability...but I'm a lefty so they're going to fold "backwards" - which doesn't bother me, I just want to make sure there's no operational problem with that. | ||
| Rick_a |
Magpul makes offset pro sights. They're nice. For red dot use the offset is unnecessary. I like Troy. Knights are nice if you've got the $$. I like the rears with bdc elevation knobs. Matech is a good one, though it's a bit bulky. I ended up with a GG&G MAD rear. Magpul, again, has a nice set of pros. They only stay open on a ball detent, which is my only complaint. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/biden-uses-war-e conomic-chaos-as-cover-to-yank-licenses-of-rogue-g un-dealers/ | ||
| Rick_a |
In some good news constitutional carry has advanced through the house and senate in Georgia. It should be the law of the land nation wide. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Ooh, and I think GA was the only state between here ahd FL, that didn't honor my MD or PA CCWs... ....or was it SC....? I'll have to check my reciprocity maps before I make any trips to see ma in FL. On a different note - still shopping to feed my new AR (5.56/.223). If I practice with .223 (less expensive), will I be able to be accurate without too many changes if I switch to 5.56? Or is there a yuge trajectory difference? | ||
| Akbuell |
Ratbuell - There is no way to know without trying. Shoot the .223, find out where it shoots and how accurately. Then try the 5.56. One may shoot smaller groups than the other, and the point of impact may change. It probably will; how much can only be determined at the range. Hope this helps, Dave. | ||
| Aesquire |
I wouldn't expect any accuracy difference between "white box" low end commercial and mil spec as issued. Point of aim maybe, always check. I had about an inch difference between Black Hills 62gr. OTM remanufactured, and Federal same weight & type new. Accuracy in both was better than I'm capable of. There are things that improve your chances of accuracy. Consistent ammo. Free floated barrel. Good muzzle with no burrs, etc. Nice trigger, very big on that one myself. But ultimately, when the powder goes bang, the barrel acts like a tuning fork & vibrates. Where & in which direction the muzzle is moving at the tiny fraction of a second the bullet leaves determined where it goes. ( hence consistent ammo important ) Two brands of ammo may put the bullet at the muzzle slightly different times, by milliseconds. Thus Brand X works great in one gun but not another. Despite the greatest care in bedding, heat treatment, and lucky charms, that's true to wild!y varying degrees. Some guns digest everything others "hate" one load And like others. Ditto bullet weights And shapes. ( my buddy's Marlin & my Winchester don't like the same ammo. Not by much. I can only tell if I shoot at the bench with bags. ) And that's where reloading goes from saving money to art of tuning. A few grains of powder different changes the instant the bullet arrives at the muzzle. | ||
| Ducbsa |
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| Aesquire |
First coil gun you can buy. Sure, it's BB gun level power, and basically a toy, that can put your eye out, and the tech sure isn't ready for that auto turret on the roof that shoots down hypersonic missiles. But with the advances companies like Tesla and Koenigsegg are pushing in high discharge rate batteries and capacitors, in a decade you may be able to get, or build, one capable of hunting woodchucks or defending the country against hordes of Justin Fanatics sweeping across the border to steal our transexual athletes.  More "practical" if not affordable, is the marriage of pre-WW1 tech and 21st century manufacturing technology and metallurgy. I can't order one here in the Imperial State, but after the Russians free us from the Nazis in Albany... That's a joke. Really. Russian gun laws aren't that different. The technology is VERY interesting, I'd love a look at the internal passages and see how they create unidirectional flow from the heat. ( I have a clue, but the details fascinate me ) (Message edited by aesquire on March 26, 2022) | ||
| Ourdee |
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/feds-fight-the-f low-of-chinese-auto-sears-into-the-u-s/?fbclid=IwA R2DHxzrrnKZoEA9DkWLZYuFrai95VOixisOh_GJAp29IJWSapl QM-w2uCY | ||
| Aesquire |
Why does this seem like outright lies on the part of the ATF? Sure, during the Clinton years the Chinese shipped containers of full auto AK clones into Long Beach to the gangs, as part of a "screw America" operation as they bought into the drug trade from South America and the Clinton anti freedom goons.... Oh. Fentanyl. Barry, Joe*, False Flag operations,.... You're the Official Terrorists. I'm not paranoid enough. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Well, good and bad news. My Sig Romeo MSR / Juliet 3 magnifier combo arrived yesterday and I installed it on the AR. Haven't zeroed it yet, still deciding what range I want to set it for...but I like the setup. Wish the flip-out on the Juliet was reversible since I'm a lefty (I have a facefull of magnifier when I'm using the dot un-magnified), but that's a minor thing. Bad news? The goddamned sticker on the bottom said "Made In China".   | ||
| Aesquire |
The zero is an opinion as anticipated use matter. The bullet rises, then falls. If the ballistics of the ammo through your length barrel matches handy ranges, then you pick the rising intersection with your straight sight line, say, 50 meters/yards, and the falling intersection, say 200, and note the inches above maximum and the same inches below distance out past the second zero, & that gives you the point blank range. Ballistic computer programs are ideal, several ammo makers have them... https://www.federalpremium.com /Ballistics-Calculator Let's say, your bore is 1.5" below sightline & you are using Federal 69 grain Sierra match open tip boattail. Zero @ 200, and you're 1.5" low at the muzzle, 1.7" high at 100 yards, 3.2" low @ 250... That might not be your ideal, or ammo choice. I'm still looking for the one I liked, Remington? ( page not found ) You pick your ammo & then figure a few different trajectories with different zeros to get the results you want. The above example should hit within roughly 3" of aim out to 250 yards. Rick probably has better advice. Opinions vary and you want a useful zero at ranges you think you'll use. The Sierra match 69 grain above setup is ideal if I'm hunting woodchuck under 250 yards, for example. Also works fine at the 200 yard range at closest gun club. If I was just shooting targets at the 100 yard range at my brother in law's club, I'd use 100, if I'm prairie dog hunting in S. Dakota, I'd pick a different zero, etc. | ||
| Aesquire |
As to buying Chinese.... Not all is crap. If they have good QC Chinese factories can be fine. I can give an informed rant, but it basically means the products are as good as management wants. If they Want a quality product & reputation, they Choose to pay for the measurement gear, the labor to inspect product, and are willing to scrap bad parts. Period. Considering that Asian students are being denied entry at colleges by racist quotas, you certainly can't say "Chinese are stupid". ( some are, so are half the population in the U.S. ) The knowledge on how to make good products has been given the Chinese by tremendous investment from here. We spent Trillions to build up their capacity to make stuff! If your objections are political and rational, you prefer to buy American or European, that's fine. But... We live in a Golden Age. Yo have a window of time before the inevitable falling out means you can't buy cheap stuff from China. Assuming war is coming soon. This is the edge of the Good Days. The most powerful cars and truck engines probably won't be made next year or very soon. Politics. I can't buy that Ukrainian made wing I wanted. Politics. I could 3 months ago. The Chinese kite I ordered is delayed, the city it's made in locked down because 6 cases were identified last week. ( it's the Chinese government locking down, so it may just be to stop protests ) Canada is now a brutal dictatorship condemned by European powers. And Joe* might threaten Xi next week that he'll be quite cross if Xi conquers Taiwan and his troops aren't Carbon Neutral. And Riyadh & Tel Aviv? Sigh. How about a 10 gallon a week gas ration? But it's ok, in California you will get Free Gas Money to help pay the $200? charge. So I say buy your stuff before you can't. I paid $5 a gallon this week for booze free 90 octane, but did have a nice ride with my buddy on his Yamaha. | ||
| Rick_a |
I buy cheap RC's from China. Optics. No. Nothing my life may depend on. They make copies of various things, but the originals are almost always superior. | ||
| Aesquire |
The Sun red dots were given quite the torture test in the Forgotten Weapons/In Range WWSD ( what would Stoner do?) project. As I've pointed out elsewhere, the Chinese can make very good products. If. Ultimately, the Quality of a company's products is a Choice by management. They have to decide the reputation is worth the cost. It takes money to buy/build the tools for Quality Control, money to pay the skilled workers to ensure QC, and most importantly, the willingness to scrap bad parts and make new good ones. Which costs money and bites into profits. A Chinese company can have as good a Quality product as a Korean, Japanese, or American company. It's a choice. I'll ignore German companies, that could do quality work, but seem to have a bitter hatred for mechanics. As in, "yeah, that oil seal has failed for 30 years, we never fixed the issue, and you have to remove the engine and disassemble it to the bare block to replace it" BMW cars. And, sorry to say, nobody is perfect. https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj9u4Ts2NpEs_ 8y9aTjBs1Z9WZNBnaDAr In a barely related note. Some complain about recoil. | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, btw, what's your suggestion for zeroing range with a .223 carbine? | ||
| Ratbuell |
Optics. No. Nothing my life may depend on. That's what aggravated me - I didn't buy a "cheap Chinese knockoff". I bought from Sig Sauer. Sucks that they outsource like that - I'm sick of the USA outsourcing EVERYTHING, when we've proven that we have the ability to do it just as well - if not better - right here at home, and be IN CONTROL OF IT as a result. All good info on the zero point - and that is the debate I'm having, figuring out my "typical use". It's a new toy, I've been focused on my CCW handgun for so long that anything over 10 yards seems like a mile...but I'll get it all straightened out. | ||
| Rick_a |
A 36 yard zero will get you out to 300 yards. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/boys-a ntitank-rifle/ The Makin Island raid is covered pretty well in WEB Griffin's novel series The Corps. He inserts his own characters in the action, as you'd expect from history based Fiction. But the shooting down on take off of a big Kawanashi flying boat by the Marines with a Boys rifle is factual. Think of the Boys as the Barrett's ancestor. And the Boys was the British response to tank warfare needs, an improved successor to the Mauser Tankgewehr. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_1918_T-Gewe hr A silly beast that was a scaled up version of existing rifles. Think of it as the single shot youth rifle on steroids with attitude. The Germans had very unflattering things to say about excessive recoil too. Broken collar bones and shoulders. I can't wait for Mae of C&Arsenal to get her hands on a Boys. They've finally moved on from their WW1 centric beginnings. Began as a response/partner to The Great War project out of Germany to document WW1, the history gun buffs @ C&Arsenal were initially asked for photos for the project, which, based in a gun unfriendly land, couldn't effectively cover the small arms of the war. Othias was about to start a video series, so instead began the Primer series covering in detail the history, personalities, development, and use of WW1 small arms, to fill the gap The Great War project was stuck with. One highly informative aspect of the project was a century offset daily report on WW1. Basically the news of the time posted daily, which is a unique resource for understanding a complex, long, and seriously bad time. The C&Arsenal show isn't for everyone, I admit. I find the technology and development fascinating. The personalities, the ego, the clashes, and the need to get around patents, led to some weird and wonderful firearms and stories. John Moses Browning waiting for the board meeting to finish to sell his new design, only to be sent home because the company President died of a heart attack in the meeting, is one of the turning points in history. Knowing that incident makes the FN/Browning acquisition of Winchester incredibly Ironic. The development of the Lewis Gun is another personality driven tale, as is the Canadian Ross rifle. Mae? The "star" is a big guy and his partner Mae is about average size for a WW1 soldier, plus pretty, so she does the demonstration shooting. Thankfully! You may not care how the patent for X was avoided by some clever sear design, or how many were ordered by what country, but the show is a valuable resource and well made. If your attention span is short? They got that covered, too. |
