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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, I'm trying to fend off the "middle age spread", and keep from looking like I'm in my first trimester...so I'm making a point to do 5.5 miles a day on my mountain bike after work. I'm not cruising, I'm working it - 25 minutes total, I cover about 800' of elevation change, and according to my Garmin watch I burn about 400 calories doing it.

But I keep breaking spokes on my rear wheel.

It's true (the wheel, not the statement...well...the statement is too I suppose...), and I don't mess with spokes. I have a good niche shop here in town that does all the wrenching on it for me. But when I'm grinding up these hills, it'll simply pop a spoke or two where the elbow goes through the hub. I don't know if it's just "time" for them to be worn out, and I should re-lace the whole wheel, or if I'm on the wrong bike for what I'm doing.

I got a MTB because I'm rough on stuff. If I had a street bike, I know I'd taco rims or bend the frame. My daily ride is 90% paved. LOTS of hills. And about a half mile of heavy gravel at moderate speed. The bike is a 29r with disc brakes, 29x2.10 tires and a Shimano 27 speed (3x9). Hardtail, rigid front end. Old school.

Does anyone here ride? Know of any HD upgrade spokes they recommend for 29" rims? Standard aluminum rims, standard center section, tubed tires...
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Pellis
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rat,
Back in the day, when I use to ride, I was always braking spokes on the rear wheel. I went from 36 spokes to 40 and went to different spokes. Had a wheel builder who knew want they were doing build it and I put thousands of miles on that wheel with no problems.
So the first question I have for you is how many spokes are in the rear wheel?
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Fireboltwillie
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

your weight, age of wheels, all make a difference. plenty of new wheels on the market to replace what you have. not worth the trouble and expense to have the existing wheel relaced…. ebay, etc for updated wheels should be good. also, full suspension or rigid? you can run a little less air pressure to soak up the bumps.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 05:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hardtail. I'm not worried about the bumps, I have it set decently comfy now. I want to say 36 spokes? They're the stock wheels on my 2012 GT Karakoram Elite 29r. I just wish I could find full specs on them...

I broke 2 spokes about 2 weeks ago and they replaced those two, and trued the rim. I'm guessing if I keep this rim I'll need to replace all the spokes, they're obviously fatigued. I go about 200lbs, but I work it HARD when I'm cranking up these hills. I don't j-slide or lock brakes, and I still burn completely through a rear tire in a season of riding - even the new dual compound hybrids go bald on me, I'm torquing so hard on the pedals.

I asked the shop to provide me with the specs so I can shop for replacement wheels. I know it's a 29, with a 9 speed cartridge, but I don't know axle size, or width, or any of that stuff that you need to know to make these things fit. If I can find some that don't cost $500 a set, I'll do that. Otherwise...I may suck it up and get a new bike. But some of these things cost more than I pay for MOTORCYCLES! Jeez!

We'll see what the shop says.

(Message edited by ratbuell on July 01, 2020)
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Tpehak
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes bicycles cost more than motorcycles. But they are more enjoyable too.

(Message edited by TPEHAK on July 01, 2020)
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Aesquire
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 06:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Brand name DT spokes. Scandahoovian steel. They sell straight, butted, and double butted (1,2 & 3 diameters with the thin part in the middle which is only under tension ) but straight full diameter, while grams heavier, is pretty bomb proof.

And check that hub, because they shouldn't fail there all the time unless the hub has a sharp edge to initiate fracture.

I've taco'ed a few wheels in my day, but don't break spokes.

And learning spoke tensioning is pretty easy, right on the bike, just spin the wheels and let a fingernail or other light thing gently touch the spokes to make them ping. Should make pretty close to the same note, all round. And you just watch the brake ( for rim brakes ) or other reference point to see how much wobble the rim has.

Admittedly it's a job best done with the radio on something you are half ignoring and a beer or 2 with a comfy stool to sit on. A zen process of simple logic and geometry. Try asking for a lesson? And remember, spoke only pull, can't push.
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Ourdee
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

not worth the trouble and expense to have the existing wheel relaced…. I learned to lace wheels when I was building bicycles. On 36 spoke wheels I like to do a 3 forward 3 reverse pattern. I've lace from a 10" up to a 51" wheel. Very satisfying to ride on your own wheels.
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Ourdee
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)



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Tpehak
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There are carbon fiber spokeless wheels.
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Ourdee
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 06:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do you mean carbon fiber wheels with carbon fiber spokes or disk wheels?
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've found cf rims with stainless spokes, as well as six-spoke cf "mag" wheels.

Prices have a comma in them. Not sure if I'm that serious...

Just need my specs, so I can stop for real.
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Fireboltwillie
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://www.bikeroar.com/products/gt-bikes/karakora m-4-0-2012/specs
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Fireboltwillie
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

built my first set of wheels in high school in the early 80's. rode them all over long island for years, well into the 90's. you may want to check ebay or even craigslist for someone selling just a used rear wheel from an all mountain type of bike... the wheels are typically bombproof... but heavy. any 8 or 9 speed hub should fit right in between the dropouts.
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Tpehak
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Disk wheels.
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Aesquire
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm gravity challenged too, been over 200 for decades, and while I don't claim high skill level, I also don't claim good sense at not going down a too tough trail.

Have your shop check the spoke holes in the hub, and ask if they use any kind of lube on the spoke threads. Half my wheels ( 3 bikes, 4 sets ) are home made and the others by a local shop. ( Freewheelers, Rochester NY. Mt. Hope ave ) The owner is crazy old school, ( although they will make you up a nice electric bike if you want ) and each bike gets taken out of the box, disassembled, and rebuilt with premium lubes and care. Makes a huge difference in longevity.

Carbon fiber wheels? Sure, but why bother? not much if any stronger. Can be pretty, but $$$ And Today $500 for a pair of wheels isn't excessive, and you don't get all that much for it... cheaper to build your own. ( or have your shop build them )

I have also avoided low spoke count wheels, 32 or 36 is appropriate for big, hard charging riders.

If you were making the rims into tacos I'd suggest Aero rims. "A" shape cross section, much stronger than "U" shape. And the extra of less aerodynamic drag at speed, and yeah, it makes a difference.

( So does wheels with fewer spokes, but a deep aero rim is the best bang for the buck for speed & strength. )
.....

Just checked with my Bike mechanic buddy...

He doesn't think you should be breaking spokes unless you are doing heavy downhill racing. But anything can break, and Chinese steel is junk, so...

His advice.

You break more than one spoke on a wheel by mischance, ( like a branch caught in the wheel ) then replace ALL the spokes.

DT or Wheelsmith brand spokes, PLUS
Have them put tiny brass washers between each spoke and the hub. This is fairly expensive! expect to spend $20 more. But the washers will conform to spoke and hub and thus reduce breakage.

Once the hub is laced the first time, the spokes indent the aluminum of the hub, and every wheel you lace up should then use the same pattern ( usually 3 cross ) so you aren't cutting the spokes on raised ridges on the hub.

The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt is The Definitive work on the subject. Worth having if you want to build your own, or enjoy scandahoovian engineering. I wouldn't pay the $70+ Amazon wants for it though. I paid like $25, but that was back when books all came in paper. Something to keep an eye out for at used book stores.

But for your instant gratification...; )

Lots in here to digest...

http://www.troubleshooters.com/bicycles/wheelbuild ing/
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I get the idea of the DTs - and I"ll likely order a set if the shop can't get them - but my concern is, I'm not breaking the spoke in the shaft, I'm breaking it at the elbow where it passes through the hub. Non-tapered wouldn't have any effect there. The only thing I can think of is, the hub is "loose" and shifting around against the spoke elbows, gradually wearing into them and causing them to break.

My daily ride has 2 good downhill stretches...both paved. Not hammering over rocks or anything like that. I'm actually not beating on the bike at all, terrain-wise, just torquing the hell out of the pedals when I'm grinding up hills.

I like the washer idea, but I wonder if there's enough material in the short leg of the elbow to pass through both the washer, and the hub flange...
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I appreciate the link above, too, Willie...but I don't have a 4.0, and any of the spec sheets don't have the measurements I need like skewer length/diameter, rim width, offset, stuff like that.
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Aesquire
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you look at "Hub Spoke Hole Bevelling" in the above article, it might be relevant.

You should be able to get the axle length by just measuring the wheel, easier out of the bike. Basically, the hub/axle/skewer combination is the same for 6 speed hubs, 7, etc. Several sizes used over the years.

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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Spokes break, normally, at 2 spots.

The beginning of the threads at the rim. GOOD spokes use a rolled thread, with less stress risers, while a cheap spoke might use cut threads.

And where the spoke is bent at the hub, if there isn't a countersink/bevel to eliminate the sharp corner.


https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/spokes-nipples /spokes/dt-champion

https://www.sicklines.com/2013/02/13/wheelsmith-ho w-a-spoke-is-made/
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Macbuell
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 01:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Has anyone tried one of those fat tire bikes. I have heard they are a blast.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I rid e30 to 50 miles a dat ... about 50% pavement and 20 miles of sandy canal roads on the levee. I generally average about 15 mph so ....while it’s fine for a guy pushing 70. . . I’m not pushing it. I burn between 2,000 and 3,000 calories daily

I can attest that it’s a great way to loose the middle aged spread. I was “beyond spread” at 272# and am now in the 190# range. I also have some other exercises.

I’m using, for now, a Trek Dual Sport 2. The better half has a Pinarello .... nice, but I ain’t spending more than the price of a Ducati on a bicycle.

I am looking at upgrading to another trek.

Sounds like .... for the broken spokes ( sounds like a saloon, eh?) .... there are several options. May be prudent to start by making certain they are a original factory spec and free of shape edges.

Like motorbikes . . . There are no shortages of wheel and spoke options. I think I’d steer clear of the carbon alternatives ... for the type of riding you and I do. At least for me, putting a $2,000 wheel on a $700 bike wouldn’t play out.

Eager to hear the solution. . . . I’m betting . . . Since spokes seldom break. . . That getting them to factory spec will solve it. If not, you may be out riding the bike and need to upgrade to something a bit more robust.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm worried about the last statement - out-riding the bike, or simply having the wrong bike for the job.

I got a MTB because I'm rough on stuff (rougher than a road velo would handle), but I'm not doing technical rock-hopping like I used to in college (back then I had a rock-ring on my sprocket set because it was a third wheel for clawing over rocks and logs). I have this weird combo of use, just in the single daily ride.

According to my Garmin, my average speed for this circuit is 12.4 mph or so. There are two big downhills (both paved), where I am in top gear and going fast enough, for about a half mile each, that I can no longer increase speed with the pedals. There are many, MANY uphill sections (to make up for those monster downhills) where I'm grinding away in third or fourth gear, working my legs and cranking HARD on the pedals - not as an "easy ride" but as a "max workout". I check my HR after 2 of these climbs and I'm typically at 160-165 - these are big digs. During the ride I tend to keep my front gearset on the top range (large sprocket). The rest of the ride is some level ground, and a lot of minor uphills that are also 3rd or 4th gear crank-marathons. And the uphill grinds are where I have broken all the spokes, when I'm cranking on the pedals. No FOD, no rough downhill smacking around...just pulling hard on the gearset.

I haven't ridden a fat bike yet, nor have I ridden one of the new "trail" bikes - I'm anxious to try some though because they all seem to be moving to a 1x11 or 1x12 gearset, as opposed to my 3x9. Since I always leave my front set in top range...I'd likely be OK with a single front sprocket, as long as I have the top speed I like, along with the lower climbing gears.

I'm not "strong" by any stretch - lanky best describes me (I am 6'4", after all), but my leg torque comes from leverage, both on the bike and on the rowing machine.

I may end up looking at new bikes, if for no other reason than to have a "spare" so I can keep up on my exercise without downtime. The shop is telling me one month for the re-lace...no way I'm waiting that long. Worst case right now, I'll buy a second bike to ride, and order a set of spokes to try my hand at lacing without it being my "only" bike.

I'm not doing shows right now with this COVID crap, so no moving heavy equipment, setting up, tearing down, running the show, loading the truck...so I have to do SOMETHING besides sitting on my ass. I have the rowing machine (which I used last night)...but I much prefer to be out in the sunlight and fresh air!
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Ourdee
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 09:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am a fan of the second bike being different. I would pick up a fixie for number 2. Think of it as a training tool.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 09:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You and I are on precisely the same page. I have the front gear on the outer ring all the time and use only the top 3 gears,

Unlike you, I can ride 50 miles with only a 12' total grade change over the entire ride.

A 12mph average is a good workout and that HR tells me you're really getting after it. In my sunset years, on flat terrain, I average 12 to 15 mph at the end of a ride. The other day, when I did the 50.1, I averaged 12 but it was a lot of sandy roads. For me to hold 15 MPH avg over a couple hours is really getting after it.

I've put bike racks on 2 cars and am going to haul the bike from down here up to the farm and replace the one down here. The new 1x11 or 1x12 gearset interest me a lot and I'd enjoy hearing our thoughts.

I think a 2nd bike is a good idea . . . bike shops here are backed up for months on new bikes and service. I have a "new" . . pretty much unused . . . bike up north . . a Schwinn Woodlands I bought in 1995. I also have the unridden first Buell SASS bike which I can't get myself to take off the wall . . so I'll replace the one down here.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 09:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, if I found a SASS I'd jump on it in a heartbeat...

I tend towards hardtails in general, because when I stand and crank on a full-suspension bike, I lose too much torque through suspension squat. That, combined with the fact that I don't do technical downhill banzai runs...I just don't need the cost and complexity. I do appreciate a nice Rock Shox front end, but only if I can set it up for good high-speed compliance, but minimal low-speed bounce (i.e. soak up the sharp hits, but don't wallow as I crank on the pedals).

So I have my front fork locked out now (just an entry-level sprung fork...XCR maybe?), and a hardtail frame.

I'm intrigued by the new drop-post seats, though - basically your seat post is replaced with what looks to me like an old Monroe shock absorber, to help insulate the twig n berries from road impacts...
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Court
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ditto . . .I have the Rock Shot on the front . . .mostly locked out and I'm not, for a moment, believing anything I do requires rear suspension . . . beyond my quest for geek stuff.

I have to say . . for the use I put this $700 bike through . . . I'd not be one bit happier with a $12,000 model. I'm n to racing or running against the clock . . . just simple fitness.

You'll have to bring yours next visit and we'll hit some of the amazing trials in the area. . .there is one by Woodstock I'm eager to try. Perhaps, after we watch the 9 year old rock stars, we could check it out!

:-)
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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've got a Rockshock suspension seat post on my 700C off road bike. Really takes the edge off bumps. Doesn't seem to soak up much power. Highly recommended on a hard tail.

Wheel sizes are somewhat arbitrary marketing terms. 26, ( 700C, 29, ) 27, in outside diameter order. You'd be hard pressed to match those numbers against anything you found with a tape measure. Rim width is from 700C, 27, 26, 29... with lots of overlap, I use 700C wheels with "26" width ( 38-42? ) rims for my off-road bike. Hardtail with shock seat post and suspension handlebar stem. ( old, can't get parts for, will replace soon with a shock fork. )

My "26" mountain bike is an o!d Stumpjumper full suspension. Dealing with power induced bounce isn't too bad. The speed increase from being able to just bash over rough terrain overcomes the power suck from the suspension, but geometry has a lot to do with that. Not all full suspension setups are efficient.

Fat tire bikes give you cushion f&r but very limited travel and suck power to gain you that cushion. The wider tires do make riding on beach type sand easier.

My experience is the larger dia. with moderate width tires of a 700C bike is noticeably faster ( and easier ) than 26" bikes up to a sharp limit of terrain roughness, then the wider tires rule.

Long before "hybrids" became popular came Cyclecross, drop bar ( rams horn ) bikes with better ( mountain bike ) brakes with 700C wheels and fatter than street knobby tires. Niche racing with guys jumping on & off the bikes for mud and fences.

Then the "Metis" ( French for mutant, bastard ) converted road race or Cyclecross bikes with flat mountain bike bars, brakes and gearing. That was a crazy guy niche "get off? Heck no! I'm riding through!" that later got called " hybrid" and usually is marketed with low quality/cost components as commuter and recreational bikes.

I prefer to spin the crank than hammer. I use both ends of my gearing range. I try to keep it from 60-90 rpm. Much easier on the knees. ( and I'm a Cyborg. Mine are Titanium. )
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Pwnzor
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rockshock suspension seat post

I always tried to make a point of being off the saddle whenever the bumps were big enough to need suspension.

I always rode on 26 inch wheels. These new 29's probably have a lot more stress on the spokes than my wheels did. I can't recall ever breaking spokes, but then I always spent "way too much" on my wheels.
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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://caravan.hobby.ru/materiel/Bicycle_Wheel_-_J obst_Brandt.pdf

here ya go
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Court
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hahaha .... damn you ....I started reading and I’m going to be up half the night.

Seriously ...thanks for some really interesting material. I’m learning a good deal.
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