| Author | Message | ||
     Sami |
H0gwash, American public schools used to have prayer, but the long march through the institutions of the sixties changed that. Do you wish to have prayer back in schools? What does paganism offer to uphold national morality? | ||
| H0gwash |
I was born in 1971, I never had prayer in school. IMHO prayer is school is fine if you are not required to participate. For that matter, you can pray all day in school if you want. My other half, who was born in 1940, remembers when 'under God' was inserted into the Pledge. He laughs when he remembers how the uniform recitation of the Pledge would get scrambled because half the students would forget that the Pledge had been changed and then the whole group recitation was spoiled. What does paganism offer national morality? Alternatives. My hat is off to those churches that do uphold morality, but IMHO many of them don't. (Message edited by h0gwash on April 01, 2020) | ||
| Sami |
H0gwash, Voluntary prayer in schools is also banned. In other words, you cannot pray all day in school if you want. What is the pagan alternative to this? | ||
| Court |
Is this the same George WASHINGTON who was banging all the slaves? The documents on which this country were founded were written by street smart, guys willing to fight, argumentative, diplomatic but willing to call folks out .... guys who’d been screwed over by a Monarchy. Religion was an element ..... not a guiding principle. We’ve had plenty of great leaders .... who’ve screwed and cussed their way through office. | ||
| Sami |
Court, Perhaps that is all the more reason to have religion as the guiding principle rather than just an element. Indeed, the founding fathers were fallible men, I have not argued otherwise. Even so, John Adams mentioned that the Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. Without morality and religion, what is left of the Constitution? Arguably not much. | ||
| Hootowl |
Indeed, for without God, or the “creator” our inalienable rights have no basis. | ||
| H0gwash |
It is only school-led prayer in public schools which is illegal. Christians and pagans alike can pray for God or whomever to give them the answer to that horrible test question, just not in a disruptive or coercive manner (Message edited by h0gwash on April 01, 2020) | ||
| H0gwash |
For that matter, I don't object to guiding principles. I might object if the enforcement of such is crazy. | ||
| Court |
You’ve no argument from me. Religion can be a wide variety of things . . . I’m a Christian, but respect each individuals right to make those choices which best suit them. (Message edited by Court on April 01, 2020) | ||
| Ourdee |
I look at peoples relationships with their parents. I find most to be stuck with those parents. Rarely someone gets away from a bad set. But it is usually the other way around when they escape. I've found religion to be a horrible goal and there are very few men to guide you that don't need a guide their own selves. I look at the bible as a map. The place on that map that I want to be is in the relationship Adam had with God in the garden before Eve was beguiled/faked out by the snake that has crawled on his belly from that day till now. I want to walk with God in the spirit of the day (cool of the day). The closest I can get to that on this Earth is in prayer. | ||
| Sami |
I'd say that prayer is at the heart of the issue. Which is why I have mentioned earlier the Marxist effort to remove prayer from schools. This was not the case prior to the sixties, when schools did have prayers. Much of the ills we see today (broken families, divorce, single parents, etc.) can be traced back to banning school prayers. The three most important things in life are: God. Nation. Family. Marxists removed God from schools by removing prayer from schools. This resulted in a disruption to the nation and to the family. Without God, the State becomes god. | ||
| Sami |
H0gwash, Children spend about 7 hours a day in schools for 180 days a year. (source: https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass0708_0 35_s1s.asp). This amounts to (7x180) 1260 hours or 52 days without God or prayers. Removing 52 days per year from their lives without God and prayers is the single most effective thing Marxists have done to achieve their long march through the institutions. (Message edited by Sami on April 02, 2020) | ||
| Sami |
Hootowl: ''Indeed, for without God, or the “creator” our inalienable rights have no basis.'' That's essentially what I'm saying. Nothing stands without a basis, without a foundation. Remove the basis, the foundation, and the collapse of what has been built is ensued. | ||
| H0gwash |
Children can pray to whoever whenever they want to, no one is stopping them. Inalienable rights have an independent basis in American law and can be surrendered by the individual if they choose. | ||
| Sami |
H0gwawsh, Not in public schools, because doing so has been made illegal since the sixties. A house is dependent upon its underlying foundation. No foundation, no house. Similarly, no God (no foundation), no rights (no house). Of course rights can be surrendered by the individual if they choose to. A bank robber surrenders some of his rights when he chooses to rob a bank. However, that isn't to say that rights have a God-independent foundation. Again, the American Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. People surrender their rights when they choose to be immoral and anti-religious. Rights are endowed by the Creator. Who is the Creator if not God? Is the State god? | ||
| H0gwash |
https://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandsch ools/prayer_guidance.html This is from the US Department of Education's Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer and Religious Expression in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools, dated January 16 2020: "Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer in their official capacities, students and teachers do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." The Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. For example, "nothing in the Constitution . . . prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the schoolday," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics." | ||
| Sami |
H0gwash, Thank you for bringing that to my attention. As you say, that is dated January 16 2020, and to complement that, here is an article regarding those recent updates: Trump protecting public school prayer is 'beginning of the end of war on faith' https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/trump-prayer- school-public-guidance Trump's administration has updated the guidance on prayer in schools as of 2020. My guess is that Marxists are not going to be too happy with this. Their long march through the institutions relied heavily on banning prayer in schools, it seems that the tide is turning against them. | ||
| Hootowl |
Only for as long as a conservative is in office. When the socialists retake the whitehouse, God will be on the outs again. Given the number of young adults enamored with communism these days, it’s almost inevitable. | ||
| H0gwash |
In 1995, under the direction of President Bill Clinton, the United States Secretary of Education Richard Riley released a set of guidelines entitled Religious Expression in Public Schools. This set of guidelines was sent to every school superintendent in the country with the purpose of ending confusion regarding religious expression in public schools. These guidelines were updated in 1996 and again in 1998, and still hold true today. “Nothing in the First Amendment converts our public schools into religion-free zones, or requires all religious expression to be left behind at the schoolhouse door. While the government may not use schools to coerce the consciences of our students, or to convey official endorsement of religion, the public schools also may not discriminate against private religious expression during the school day. Religion is too important in our history and our heritage for us to keep it out of our schools…[I]t shouldn't be demanded, but as long as it is not sponsored by school officials and doesn't interfere with other children's rights, it mustn't be denied.” President Clinton July 12, 1995 | ||
| Sami |
''...the public schools also may not discriminate against private religious expression during the school day. '' How about public religious expression during the school day? May the public schools discriminate against that? I think that is one of the main issues that the recent update is meant to address. Namely, are students going to be discriminated against if they choose to *publicly* express their religion during the school day? The answer to that seems to be ''no'', schools are not allowed to do that, hence the beginning of the end of war on faith. This is an interesting development regardless. | ||
| Sami |
Hootowl, I understand your concern, and it is possible that things may turn out that way. Although I wouldn't call it almost inevitable. It is more likely that this recent update is here to stay, because anyone trying to reverse it will be seen as anti-religious and restarting the war on faith. | ||
| H0gwash |
How about public religious expression during the school day? May the public schools discriminate against that? From above: "students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics"} | ||
| Sami |
It's unclear whether or not that includes public religious expression. It does mention speaking and persuading their peers, but that seems to be a matter of public debate expression rather than public religious expression. So you could publicly debate religion, but you couldn't publicly express religion. At least that's how it seems to be worded. Wikipedia seems to have the same wording: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the _United_States Interestingly, Wikipedia hasn't listed the recent update. Regardless, I think that the recent guidance update from 2020 is more clear insofar as being the beginning of the end of war on faith. | ||
| Sami |
The 2020 guidance has Freedom From Religion Foundation worried: Trump school prayer guidance inadequate, other regs worrisome https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/36840-tru mp-school-prayer-guidance-inadequate-other-regs-wo rrisome | ||
| H0gwash |
I'm not sure what you specifically mean when you say "publicly express." It seems to me that students can basically express anything anytime as a matter of free speech. Schools just cannot hand the school's mic to the student only because that looks like the school AKA government is endorsing that student's particular religious ideas over other students religious ideas. | ||
| Sami |
Prayer in school is a public expression of religion, is it not? Wikipedia has this to say: ''Since 1962, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that prayers in public schools are unconstitutional.'' | ||
| H0gwash |
Please read Trump's guidelines at https://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandsch ools/prayer_guidance.html, I think they are quite clear. I think the excerpt I posted above answers your question. | ||
| Sami |
H0gwash, I've read the relevant parts and they make a distinction between public and private religious speech. It doesn't seem that students can basically express anything anytime as a matter of free speech. Can students for example publicly express that Christ is King? Or would that intervene with other students' rights? Perhaps it is too early to tell the practical applications and implications of this latest guideline. Schools have been closed for the time being, so time will tell how prayer will play out in the classroom. As for now, Wikipedia mentions that ''Since 1962, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that prayers in public schools are unconstitutional.'' I hope that Wikipedia is an oversimplification and hopefully the guideline proves to be much more tolerant towards prayer in public schools. Much depends on how the courts interpret the guidelines. At the end of the day, it's the judges and juries who have the final say. | ||
| H0gwash |
Can students for example publicly express that Christ is King? From above:"nothing in the Constitution . . . prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the schoolday," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics." So I think yes, if the student speaking about their own beliefs without school endorsement, the kid can pretty much say anything that doesn't cause a riot. | ||
| Hootowl |
Christian school clubs have been banned in the past. Is that a suppression of the first amendment? |
