| Author | Message | ||
     86129squids |
Pascal's wager is my favorite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager I accepted Jesus at 11, my sister praying with me as the light came in the window of our kitchen. Spent most of my school loving language and philosophy. Sociology, psychology too. I've read "Dianetics"... the first half made sense, the rest, meh. L. Ron Hubbard's novel "Battlefield Earth" book beat the heck out of the movie. My sister is a hospital chaplain, +32 years in. She's worked the ministry all her life. I'd love to see her teach... she's one of those who can help point you down the right path. I'm currently agnostic. Rush is my favorite rock band. | ||
| 86129squids |
Ummm, trying to follow both threads. | ||
| Patches |
Dianetics or Scientology is belief system based on Black Magick and Satanic Principles. Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard claimed to have had a near-death experience in 1938 that inspired him to write Excalibur, an unpublished manuscript based on the revelations from the experience. In 1945–46, Hubbard was briefly involved with and defrauded Jack Parsons, an American rocketry pioneer who was also a devoted Thelemite and member of the Agape Lodge of Aleister Crowley's magical order, Ordo Templi Orientis, in Pasadena, California. In 1950, Hubbard published Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, and in 1953 he organized the Church of Scientology. Scientology and the occult - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_the_ occult --- L Ron Hubbard was a student of Aleister Crowley. It is a well documented fact that the religion of Hubbard was Satanism. Hubbard's mentor was, in fact, the infamous English black magician Aleister Crowley. Hubbard reportedly discovered Crowley's works as a teenager on a trip to the Library of Congress with his mother. Thereafter, he was fascinated by Crowley's "Magick," and Crowley became Hubbard's mentor, a relationship that would last until Crowley's death in 1947. In one of his later lectures, Hubbard would refer to Crowley as "my good friend." https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefiel d/christians.html | ||
| Ourdee |
I went through the Crowley phase between military and turning to Jesus. Owned and read all the books. Witches stocked his books in their stores but didn't want to sell them to me. They acted like I was doing more wrong than they were. Imagine that, a holier than thou witch. | ||
| Patches |
Pascal's wager reason and intellect cannot decide the question of whether God exists or not. Matthew 12:31 - 12:32 King James Version (KJV) 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV) 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 1 John chapter 4:1 - 4:3 King James Version (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. | ||
| Patches |
If you are looking for a good church in your area this website might help. IT IS OUR DESIRE THAT THIS DATABASE OF CHURCHES WILL HELP GOD’S PEOPLE IN FINDING A HOME CHURCH IN A MINIMAL AMOUNT OF TIME AND THAT IT WILL BE USED TO WIN RELATIVES, FRIENDS, AND LOVED ONES TO OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. http://militarygetsaved.tripod.com/ | ||
| 86129squids |
We've got to do better than this. WWJD? If he were a voter? I was not pleased with any of my choices last time. It's quite sad what the "Moral Majority" has begat. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/20/790130632/christian ity-today-editor-discusses-calling-for-trumps-impe achment Read the article above. Pray. (Message edited by 86129squids on December 22, 2019) | ||
| Pwnzor |
Franklin Graham already addressed that, quite well I thought. Google his name...  | ||
| Blake |
Squids, WWJD is the wrong question. WDJD will always be more helpful. He told us that if we sincerely abide in His words (His Gospel), then we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free. It works. Combine that with His other statement about truth. "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." No mere mortal man talks like that unless he's insane. Do you really figure it's reasonable that absolutely nothing created everything? Leaders ought be chosen by how they will lead. I see lots of hypocrites judging Trump left and right. He's by nature one of the most forthright and genuine people I've ever seen in high office. He's kept more promises than any president I know. He's the man we need, for the political war that the Left has been waging against us for decades now. He's not afraid to fight. I do pray for him. Knowledge without God is more faith than I could ever muster. Absent God, we're just moist robots, no free will, no objective purpose, all destined for nothing but oblivion, no meaning. Given the above, it seems an easy choice. Ask Nietzche? LOL! Ever hear of the ontological argument for the existence of God? | ||
| Torquehd |
It's not that nothing created everything. It's that everything was squished into a tiny ball the size of a pin head. All of the matter, all of the energy in existence. All of the laws, all of the morality, all of the dimensions, all of the time, all of the emotions, it all existed there although none of those things had evolved yet. It was very hot, no modern elements could have survived. Then nothing made it explode (because explosions hadn't been invented or dictated by laws that didn't exist yet), and as it expanded (because diffusion and pressure didn't exist yet, and very quickly evolved and still exist today), it cooled off (although thermodynamics hadn't evolved yet), but instead of becoming cold dead carbon and spreading itself into a dispersion of observable, predictable, repeatable scatter of extremely fine dust, it turned itself into planets and stars and pockets of energy and gravity (which was a very well thought out choice), and the most basic, heat-refined element that ever existed turned itself into more diverse elements through some unkown and illogical process. And those elements transformed themselves into more elements. Carbon became rocks, and carbon became water, and water fell on rocks for billions of years, until rocks evolved into protiens, which was a very smart thing for rocks to do. Still more carbon evolved into lightning. then rocks magic'ed themselves into life, defying science and mathematical probability at every step, for trillions of septillions of steps in a row. Which doesn't answer the question of, "where did it come from?" It just pushes the answer further left. And requires significantly more faith to believe than the idea that there's an all powerful being who has the ability to create and control. | ||
| Hootowl |
I like the question, what would Jesus drive. The answer, of course, is a twelve passenger van. | ||
| Torquehd |
I thought it was supposed to be, an Accord | ||
| Aesquire |
Merry Christmas! A 12 passenger van doesn't have room for all the apostles and Jesus! That might explain the disgruntled one.  It just pushes the answer further left. You got that right. The God of the gaps. We don't know why the "laws of physics" are what they are, except the circular reasoning that they have to be that way for us to exist to be perplexed by them. I have no idea. I'll get back to that after I figure out gravity. I know it's there, I don't know how it really works. It's like the scene in the Avengers movie. Captain America is asked to shut down the techno babble giant fan. Heroically leaps to the box full of glowing lights, looks inside and says " It seems to be powered by some sort of electricity! " I have even less understanding of a Supreme being than I do of that box full of lights. | ||
| Torquehd |
Circular Reasoning? You mean like dating artifacts by the age of rock strata? And dating rock strata by the age of the artifacts? Don't worry, we have radio-isotope dating to verify our theories! And radio-isometric dating is accurate plus or minus a few billion years! That's how we know that dinosaurs died 65 million years ago, even though we have their DNA which should have degraded 60 million years ago! If you question the answer that we decided we'd arrive at before we began our research, then you clearly don't believe in science! | ||
| Pwnzor |
A 12 passenger holds 12 passengers. Jesus is the Driver. Many of us are fans of Scott Adams, so here's a little light reading for those who haven't seen it yet. God's Debris | ||
| Aesquire |
Thanks! For the Scott Adams book & polite discussion. Merry Christmas. You just had to ruin my "Judas had to walk" joke. (Message edited by Aesquire on December 24, 2019) | ||
| Hootowl |
Right. He had 12 disciples. He’s got to be able to haul his crew around. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/commercial/nv-p assenger/features.html Hah! 12 total seats! That proves Nietzsche is dead! | ||
| Aesquire |
Rock layer dating works pretty good. But I hang out with people with the kind of senses of humor and historic interest, that I know have "salted" future archeological sites. And they aren't the first in history to do so, sometimes deliberately. Roman coins in Boston. ( told about ) Rune stones in Pennsylvania. ( seen, camped by, and toasted with fine mead ) I'd be amazed if someone hasn't stuck a rock covered in Klingon in the Mojave, or Elvish in the woods near Portland. | ||
| Blake |
So you find a painting along side the road. When you discern that there was a painter, is that asserting a painter of the gaps? No, it isn't. We know that paintings do not paint themselves. There had to be a painter. Then you notice an old building out in the countryside. When you discern that there was a builder, are you asserting a builder of the gaps? No, we know that buildings don't build themselves. There had to be a builder. You find a book, nicely bound and printed with color illustrations and a coherent presentation of information. When you discern there was an author of the book, are you asserting an author of the gaps? No, you're not, because you know that books don't write themselves. There had to be an author. But when we look at DNA, the book of life that contains all the perfectly coherent, complex, and detailed instructions for life itself, not only its form, but also how it is to be built, some figure it could have come to be by happenstance. It defies credulity. The blind faith required to believe that life arose through happenstance in a universe that did the same is just to posit irrationality of the gaps. The same goes for all of creation, our minds, our bodies, our amazing senses, all of nature and cosmology, the very beginning of space and time. It's suddenly wise to imagine it required no creator? Creation requires a creator. That's not a gap. It's as obvious as the nose on your face. :~) (Message edited by Blake on December 24, 2019) | ||
| Hootowl |
Stop ruining my jokes! | ||
| Patches |
Galatians 6: 7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. | ||
| Aesquire |
The gaps saying, as I understand it, is beyond the limits of the known, those "gaps", is where faith takes over. Makes sense to me. I do get the impression that it's imagined like.... We know the white keys on a piano keyboard, but those narrow black ones are the unknown. I bet it's more like a night sky near a major city. The visible stars are the known, the vast gray gulfs between are unknown. And our environment of people limit seeing the sky like you can out in the country, with our galaxy spilled across it in much more colorful glory, as you can see without the crowding of the spirit. Still tiny lights in vast nothingness. Metaphor. But closer & more appropriate imho than the mechanistic keyboard one. | ||
| Pwnzor |
2 Corinthians 5 5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. | ||
| Blake |
The gap is where faith takes over. Exactly, like when we see a building, never having seen it built, nor seen any documentation about it from its days of construction, yet we trust that it didn't just appear out of chaos, but rather was built by a builder. If large collections of coherent information don't happen by chaotic happenstance, then DNA didn't happen by chaotic happenstance. Either it was cooked-into the mix from the very beginning, or it was an added part of the mix at some point afterwards. | ||
| Hootowl |
Long odds | ||
| Aesquire |
Playing Coyote's advocate here... Ten to the 74th power? Easy odds. In infinity. It's confirmation bias. We live in a universe whose very physical laws allow us to exist. We can live in no other. We are here, therefore we happened. Just that simple. Of course, someone is going to ask how the universe happened... | ||
| Blake |
The infinite imagined as a reality renders us into pure absurdity. It's more probable that the Mona Lisa come to be through chaotic happenstance than DNA. Books with large amounts of coherent information and instruction don't make themselves. They require an author. | ||
| Blake |
https://plus.maths.org/content/hilberts-hotel | ||
| Aesquire |
Thanks! Good read. The map is not the territory. The model is not the real thing. There are mathematician/engineer/physicist jokes, Asked to prove the hypothesis that odd numbers are primes, the mathematician says, 1 is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 isn't prime, it's disproved. The physicist says, 1 is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 isn't prime, that's enough data points, it's proved. The engineer says 1 is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is prime, 11... A mathematician and an engineer are placed in a room with 2 beautiful women. A voice tells them they can, in a signal, walk halfway across the room. Then on the next signal, halfway, again. The signal is given, and the engineer promptly walks halfway across the room. The mathematician just stands there. The engineer asks why? "Zenos paradox, you never make it to the other side of the room." True, says the engineer, but you can get close enough. |
