There's some who think the word Allah is taken from earlier polytheist Arab faiths from The Prophet's homeland.
I'm not sure about that. On the one hand, much of the Prophet's stuff is lifted from other faiths and myths, it's a well documented synthetic creation of a Man. OTOH it could be retcon b.s. by later enemies. ?
In any event... I agree. The People of The Book worship the same God.
That's the trouble around here; talk, talk, talk! Where will it all end? What is it getting you? Why don't you go home to your wife? I'll tell you what; I'll go home to your wife and outside of the improvement, she'll never know the difference -Groucho Marx
"That's the trouble around here; talk, talk, talk! Where will it all end? What is it getting you?"
Crusty,- This thread started out teaching paganism. I have a problem with leading people to hell. Then it went into mocking Jesus Christ and attacking me for my beliefs.
Blasphemy of my Lord:
Matthew 12:31-32 King James Version (KJV) 31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV) 36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38. This is the first and great commandment. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Should I give up? No, I'm commanded to preach Christ from the housetops. This is my purpose.
Matthew 10:27 King James Version (KJV) 27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
My take is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, though the non-messianic Jews (those who do not affirm Jesus as the messiah) have an incomplete understanding of God.
Like Dr. Craig has shared, it seems to me that the god of Islam as described in the qur'an is grossly incompatible with the God of the Bible. Allah is a false god. Yes, I've read the qur'an. It wasn't as painful to get through as The Communist Manifesto, but it was painful.
Where was Jesus mocked? Because some pointed out he was a carpenter as a young man and provided a biblical reference? That is not mockery. Jesus was also a fisherman. I think you may not understand the meaning of mockery.
Opinions on Christ as he means to you. Pretty much solid rejection of Scientology. Unneeded political crud from the family of a famous preacher. Origin of the universe. "God of the gaps", some jokes, doubts about the existence of God, doubts about the Divinity of Jesus, questions on salvation, dispute over versions of the Bible.
No paganism, I'm sure I mentioned Wicca eventually.
Patches apparently thinks Jesus sprang from the womb as a thirty year old man and had no history or vocation before that. He also thinks being called a carpenter is an insult. I disagree. I was a carpenter in my teens. Spent many a happy weekend with my father working on houses. Jesus spent time on fishing boats, too. Well documented in the Bible. I’m not much of a fisherman.
Although, I do have a good fishing story.
When I was a teenager, I spent two weeks at a friend’s family’s lake cabin in eastern Washington. We would wake up every morning before the sun came up so we could be out on the lake as the sun rose. We didn’t catch anything, not even bluegill. We would cast toward the bank from the canoe over and over. One as yet fruitless morning, I said to my friend, ”Jesus said to fish from the other side of the boat” and cast my spinner over my shoulder. I immediately caught the largest Bass I have ever pulled out of that lake.
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
And was made man. Jesus was a man. A human. He lived among us as one of us. I rather suspect the bible to be correct when it refers to him as a carpenter in his early life. This is not an insult.
Once I grew up I was amused by the blonde Jesus in the illustrations.
Hard working guy with calluses. Fishing didn't mean sit on the beach with a rod. Long hours rowing a heavy boat, ropes, nets, sharp fins...Hard, dangerous underpaid work.
And odds are excellent Jesus was a dark haired Semite ( maybe a red head ) like everyone else in the region not from Rome. I don't recall a lot of physical description. So I assume he blended in as far as looks went.
Hootowl,- Your god(s) are not the same as my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, The Only Begotten Son of God.
Jesus was not born to build a table or house, he was born to Save us from are selves. The scribes and pharisees(Jews) identified Jesus as a carpenter because they did not believe he was the Son of God as you don't either. - The Trinity-
Matthew 28:19 King James Version (KJV) 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Jews killed Jesus
Mark 15:12- 14 King James Version (KJV) 12. And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews? 13. And they cried out again, Crucify him. 14. Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him. - Jesus in hell three days.
Matthew 12:40 King James Version (KJV) 40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Acts 2:31 King James Version (KJV) 31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. - Jesus ascended to the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1 King James Version (KJV) 3. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. - Once Saved Always Saved.
Hebrews 10:12 King James Version (KJV) 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; -
"catholic and apostolic Church",- Worship a different god, not of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, The Only Begotten Son of God.
Matthew 28:19 King James Version (KJV) 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: You keep getting this part wrong. That verse does not support a triune God. The use of or lack of the use of the letter s is the root of your mistake. There is no s at the end of the word name. Please, quite ignoring Jesus command to baptize people in the name (singular). What is the name? Jesus! Follow me to the history of the church and find Peter on the day of pentecost telling those men who were pricked in their hearts after realizing they had crucified the Christ That they Need to be Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Lord alone is God. Jesus is Lord. So, Jesus is God. It is simple math. " For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." This is still available today. Peter learned to obey God. When he performed the instructions from Matthew 28:19 in Acts 2:38 it shows what the instructions meant for him to do. Please quit baptizing people in titles when Jesus told you to baptize them in His name. (I won't throw you in the lake of fire) This is not the first time men messed up the plurality and singularity in Jesus' instructions. I am trying to help and know that you can not preach from just one verse when there are more than one example of any principle worth getting right. In the 5th chapter of Luke after teaching people from a boat He gives instructions that are not followed to the letter. 4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake." Jesus said nets. They cast a net. It brake. When God speaks it is important to listen to Him.
Their are men that will push a wrong action generation after generation never questioning the party line. They have eyes that see but remain blind. If the apostles were fallible, why would we think men centuries later would be infallible and blindly follow their misunderstandings? I had plenty of step fathers. I question man. I question the nicene counsel because they twisted Jesus' instructions. I question you because you blindly follow an error.
"OK, Mr. Patches,The Trinity-" "The use of or lack of the use of the letter s is the root of your mistake. There is no s at the end of the word name."
Ourdee,- What are you suppose to add a 's' too? - If Jesus is One please explain the Father and the Holy Ghost. - When Jesus ascended why would he sit at his own right hand? How would he sit at his own right hand? That makes no sence if Jesus is One.
"Jesus ascended to the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1 King James Version (KJV) 3. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Hebrews 10:12 King James Version (KJV) 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
Ourdee you worship a different god, not of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, The Only Begotten Son of God.
Bible verses related to The Holy Trinity from the King James Version (KJV)
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Matthew Chapter 28:18- 20 18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Romans 8:26- 27 26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - Pentecostal "Oneness" Doctrine Debunked - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcC0rNfFTw
You can see why I don't argue about the Trinity. 2000+ years of heartache, murder, war, and torture. And that's the Priests.
One of the Hammer's Slammers novels, ( future tank combat written by David Drake, who was a translator for the only independent tank unit in Vietnam ) has folk on a distant planet in a Holy War over... which day The Sabbath is celebrated on... With a different length of year and month.
The religious issue isn't a key part of the story, it's just the excuse for the locals to steal power and wealth. Like almost all wars. With our protagonists in the middle.
I'll grant you that the Trinity is interesting from multiple angles.. But it's all interpretation of "really obvious" passages in a multiply translated book.
That my opinion that the subject is a distraction from the important would have got me tortured to death 1500 years ago, is a big neon sign that it's not an argument anyone can win, and I don't really care what the answer is.
I could be wrong, but I figure I'll find out soon enough.
Trinity was a way to be more like some pagan religions. Jesus was not a polytheist. I'll not argue, free will allows people to be wrong. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." How many Lords do you have? I have one. How many R.D.s (me) are there? Just one, thank God. I am a father to my sons, a husband to my wife, a retiree to my former employers. The list of my titles goes on and on. But, There is just one R.D. no matter how many positions I fill. Those are titles not separate entities. Why do I have a problem with this trinity non-sense? Let me put a question to any parent out there. If you needed saved from a fire and it was certain that the person rescuing you would have to perish in your place, how impressed with me would you be if I sent my son to die for you? It is nobel when you give yourself to save another. Not so nobel to sacrifice your child.
What are you suppose to add a 's' too? You add an s to the word name when you baptize in titles instead of "the name".
If Jesus is One please explain the Father and the Holy Ghost. Titles for aspects of God not separate entities.
When Jesus ascended why would he sit at his own right hand? How would he sit at his own right hand? That makes no sense if Jesus is One.
"Jesus ascended to the right hand of God.
I giggle when trying to visualize that. Please, You must understand that the right hand means "power". Maybe it is time for you to branch out in bible versions. You are not doing well with old english.
Ourdee you worship a different god, not of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, The Only Begotten Son of God. I worship Christ and him crucified, the only living God. You appear to be a polytheist only really having 2 Gods (a Father of a dead child roaming around as Casper. You kill the Christ/Chrio/Mashiach (One anointed with oil, One anointed with spirit, a better understanding) and are left with Father and Ghost. When you get to heaven, who will you see sitting on the throne?
Genesis 1:26 God talked to the angels.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. His name "Jesus" may be described in those ways. Those are his attributes not Names of Him. If you want those to be his names, you have just made Him a Holy 5 not three. That reasoning will divvy him into a herd of Gods by the time you have placed all the titles for him in the KJV.
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. Just one more that I do not grow weary in well doing. Here is an example of your KJV adding words. See the  around my. Indicates that it does not line up with the Greek. The word "and" is better interpreted from the greek into modern english to mean "even". Try reading it this way, "I even the Father are one."
Will you trust your salvation to Youtube? I will provide one for you:
Ok, one more. This man wrote his doctorate on oneness pentecostalism while attending a trinitarian college and graduated. I have been blessed to join in prayer meetings with him.
"When you get to heaven, who will you see sitting on the throne?"
God the Father, Jesus Christ and 24 Elders.
Acts 2:30 King James Version (KJV) 30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Revelation 4:2- 5 King James Version (KJV) 2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. - "Genesis 1:26 God talked to the angels."- Where in the bible does it state "God talked to the angels" yet alone "Genesis 1"?
Was angels created before Man?- verse. - Ourdee,- Rev. 22:18-19 states DO NOT Add To or Take Away From God's Word. What you stated in Matthew 28:19 adding a "s" is wrong. In Genesis 1:26 you stated "God talked to the angels." that is adding to God's Word also.
Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV) 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Are you Pentecostal? Do you speak in tongues also?
Pentecostals think jibber-jabber and barking like a dog is speaking in tongues and is evidence of salvation. It is Heresy and not Biblical. I believe Pentecostalism is a False Religion.
True Biblical Speaking in Tongues. Acts 2:4- 11 King James Version (KJV) 4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Pat, You appear to have your mind made up. Good luck. Your KJV adds to the original texts. I hope to see you in heaven. If so, we will have a good laugh after you quit looking for a second person on the throne. I hope they have Jim's Smokin' Que there. I look forward to talking Jesus into taking me by the hand and helping me barefoot ski on the sea of glass with me screaming hallelujah the whole time.
I gather you have never heard a man praise God in a language they do not speak. I have seen, heard and had it confirmed by a person that did speak the other language. If you haven't witnessed miracles, you need to get out more. I have seen people barking like dogs. Them drugs will mess people up. I saw a person baptized in a Wesleyan Methodist service receive the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues. I baptized a man in a Catholic service in the name of Jesus Christ while submerging him in water. I was invited for that purpose because the guy would not allow them to baptize him except like it was done in Acts 2:38. Don't limit God. I've seen too much to turn back now.
Thanks for that. Islam is considered an Abrahamic religion and as such Muslims worship One God, but of course this doesn't mean that they have the same understanding of God. Nestorianism was a main influence on Muhammad and the Quran. Because of this, Muslims understand God from a Nestorian perspective.
I agree that Christians and Jews worship the same God and the latter having an incomplete understanding of God. I also agree that there is incompatibility between the descriptions of Allah and the Biblical God. Jesus' most important commandment from Mark 12:28-29:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
If we ask Muslims, ''Do you believe that the Lord our God is One?'', then they would answer ''yes''. The point being that Muslims don't believe in two or more gods (polytheism), they believe in One God (monotheism). Notwithstanding that the Quran describes Allah in ways that are incompatible with the Biblical God.