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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, so I don't know how many other sound guys(gals) we have here, but I figure I'll ask.

I keep getting more and more outdoor gigs, bigger and bigger venues, and my current rig just doesn't carry the bass outside. I designed and assembled it as an indoor rig about eight years ago, and for that it does awesome. But with these bigger shows...I need more.

So, I have just purchased multiple subs (18,000 watts worth) and am looking for input on the most efficient setup/array pattern. Just curious if anyone has any experience with this stuff and can offer tips; I plan to pick up the units tomorrow, and start pissing off my neighbors next week by field-testing (literally) some different configurations. My mix software lets me multitrack-record every show, and I can do what's called "virtual sound check" where I play back a show through the system, and other than not having people onstage...it is exactly like a show and I have all the controls and abilities I have when the guys are running around live.

First, of course, is the Left/Right ground stack. 2 subs stacked, with a pole-mount loudspeaker on top, one on each side of the stage. The "typical" setup, but it does build the "power alley" of lots of bass down the center, and fairly uneven distribution towards the edges with gaps in coverage. This is pretty much what I'm locked into for indoor venues, just because of stage geography, and the configuration I'm most used to.

Second idea is center subs with tripod L/R speakers at the stage corners. This, I'd have a row of four subs dead center (we have, for an upcoming gig, a 16" tall stage and I have 20" tall subs). I'm reading this is a good way to eliminate the "alley" and get even coverage throughout, and it also 'couples' the subs for an extra 6-12dB due to their proximity to each other. I haven't done this for indoor shows because where we play, we usually don't have a stage and I can't really build a wall-o-speakers in front of the band.

For this show, though, I can do this one of two ways - 2 subs and a loudspeaker wired to the L output, and 2 subs and a loudspeaker wired to the R output, for a true stereo house (but I don't know if that would affect the coupling); or I can reconfigure my outputs and make all four subs fed from a single mono/sub out, with L and R loudspeakers.

Again - just curious if anyone has experience with this stuff, or if I'm the only oddball here who messes with it
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Hootowl
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Iím not a sound guy, but I know that those low frequencies have such long wavelengths that, because our ears are only ~six inches apart, we cannot tell what direction they came from. I see no reason to separate channels or the subs physically from each other. In fact, they will probably sound better together because it is less likely that you'll have waves canceling each other as they bounce off stuff.

$0.02
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Ourdee
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Only times I ran outdoors was with a setup so small we didn't run monitors. I would suggest setting the monitors up and running through them along with the new stuff during the try outs.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My guys run in-ears...
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Ourdee
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Makes that easier.
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Ishai
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 01:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The simplest would be to array the four subs in the center and array them in an arc- you will have to experiment with the the diameter for best results. That off-course will have to be done with the audience being kept a bit further from the stage.
Feel free to call me for additional suggestions- I would need more info on how your system is running, and maybe we can come up with a way to do it digitally so the subs can be arrayed in a straight line.
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am weird in that I like watching sound engineers.
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86129squids
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

...

Joe, I've got an old buddy who's a sound guy and bass player- he was the main guy for years at Smoky Mountain H-D's Shed concerts. Plus he's a huge Buell aficionado. I can get you in touch with him if need be, just shoot me a PM. ; )
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Court
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)







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Crusty
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What?
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Zac4mac
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I wish I had pix of The Dead's audience mixing table in Telluride, 1987 or 1988.
RCA and phono plug-ins.

gotta love physics.

Z
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Ratbuell
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nice setup, Court. I need that screensaver, silkscreened in black, on the back of my black crew shirts!

So, I got four of the new toys home, fired up, and started experimenting (until it got dark - and being a Sunday, I figured I wouldn't be TOO cruel to the neighbors).

Holy.
Crap.

This...is a whole new level for me. Nothing like Court's photos, of course, but for "a guy" who "does some shows"...wow.

These things are amazingly light - even though they're 15 lbs heavier than my old EV's, they're better balanced and easier to lift due to better handle placement. They have built-in fly hardware, in case I ever get fly trees (and some matching line-array hi-mid speakers). They have onboard processing - EQ, limiter, crossover, even a built-in "cardioid" setting.

And they're on WHEELS.

I can't wait to get the last pair, set them up in a cardioid pattern, and do some dialing in...this is a game-changer for me. The only drawback is, I need to put a cap on the truck now - they don't all fit under the tonneau cover laying down, but standing up (taller than the bedrails but less footprint), they'll fit. Anyone have a line on a nice fiberglass cap for a 2001 Dodge Ram 8' bed?
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Ishai
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is There Delay function built in? If so you can leave them in a straight lie. The inner 2 should be at 0 delay, and the outer 2 should get delayed, start with around 2 ms and increase to around 5-6 ms. You could throw the outer 2 out of Phase, increase time until you hear the most cancellation and then put them back in phase.What subs did you get?
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Ratbuell
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry, working through changing day jobs (again), dealing with being a year older (again), and occasionally trying to sleep lol.

I got six of the Turbosound Berlin powered subs (well...I have four now, the other 2 were on rental and I should get them in a week or so):

https://www.turbosound.com/Categories/Turbosound/L oudspeaker-Systems/Touring/TBV118L-AN/p/P0B65#goog trans(en|en)

3,000w Klark-Teknik amp, class D, full DSP including gain, EQ, delay, limiter, scene presets (with PC app for creation/storage/recall), short-throw (ground stack) and long-throw (flown) presets, and LPF choices (80Hz/120Hz) including cardioid settings. Flyable with built-in hardware, and stackable with same hardware.

I need to get - or build - some powercon link cables so I don't have to have eighteen dozen power outlets (they have signal throughput jacks; network throughput jacks; and power throughput jacks), and continue to dial in my EQs and physical layouts. Four in a straight center row, divided L/R, with 3db of low-end boost, was impressive. I was using 3/6 bars on the input meters, and 2/6 of the output side - PLENTY of headroom. Hehe. I'm still going to try patching a separate sub (mono) out to see if that changes things - I do utilize stereo effects during shows, and I like the separation, but if I can get more thump with minimal effects on the stereo image I'll go for that. Also once I get the third pair, I'll experiment with cardioid setup (they recommend two forward/one back setup, to cut stage-boom).

All in all, a huge improvement on what I had...but I want to make the most of what I've got so I want to find the most efficient/effective arrangement, document it, program it...and make it easy to repeat every time.

Oh, and I have to figure out how to fit it all in the truck.
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Ishai
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

6 is better for digital arcing. Set them in a straight line, in groups of 2 . The center 2 at 0 delay, then the next 2 on 1st delay and the outside 2 at 3rd delay. Software may have the ability to create groups so you control every pair and then maybe a master group to delay all in real time relative to mains.
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Ishai
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also I would LP them at 80 or lower- depending on how low your mains go, to avid "boxy" sound..
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 08:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'll likely do 2-trios or just all six, tight to each other, so I can array them as cardioid subs, and cut some stage boom for the guys.

I've got all week to experiment...already have the board configured for a separate mono sub out (a FlexMix, set for post, with its own master), and they have a built-in LPF that I can set for 80 or 120. I may try 120 to see how that does for growl...but like I said, I have all week to fiddle and piss off the neighbors.
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Ishai
Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uD6Szdcqpw


https://fohonline.com/articles/tech-feature/cardio id-directional-subwoofer-arrays-part-1/
This link is by one of the industry's most respected authors/experts.

One more....https://www.electrovoice.com/binary/wp%20-%20Subwo ofer%20Arrays%20v04%20.pdf
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