| Author | Message | ||
     Ratbuell |
So...I have a sound company. Local/regional stuff, mostly bar/nightclub gigs, live rock and roll (and metal, and rockabilly, and country, and blues). I have a nice, lightweight, active, portable system now that I really like (and, more importantly, the audiences really like). Good punch, clear top end, reliable, durable. But. I'm somehow getting roped into more and more outdoor gigs this year, with bigger and bigger crowds, and quite frankly I don't have the power for outdoor stuff. I still nail the mix, it still "sounds great" according to the audiences...but there's no punch. No bottom end. No building to reflect sound waves + not enough power = a flat sound (to me). I pushed the system hard enough at a county fair last week, to overtemp/shut down one of my subs - first time I've done that in the nine years I've owned the gear. It's time to go bigger. In the words of Tim the Tool Man, "I need more power - AUGH". Currently I use EV powered stuff. My subs are 700w single-18s (2 of them). I like the punch - nice and tight, good hits off the kick drum but still good rumble from the bass guitar. I've used QSCs and JBLs, and running the exact same mix, exact same show, exact same settings...there's no punch on those like on my EVs. Plenty of rumble and growl, but no hit-to-the-chest. My mains, I'm pretty good - also EV, and they throw nicely and have good wide coverage so I'm not as concerned about those as I am about the subs. Yet. I'm at a crossroads. I could upgrade my current (technically "indoor" due to the power levels) EV system with a set of new EV ETX-series powered subs rated at 1,800 watts each (and presumably the same punch that my current 700w ELX subs have) and maybe have almost enough for some of these midsize outdoor gigs...or, for similar money, start building a line-array system that I can scale depending on gig and venue size. It'll be bigger money overall for a "new" system if I go line-array...but the growth possibilities are endless. A line-array, for those who don't speak this language, is what you see at "real" concerts - the curved, hanging stacks of speakers. But - you can use ten boxes per side in huge gigs...or 2 boxes per side in a small gig. Same speakers. Bigger gig = more boxes, chain 'em together and flip a switch in the DSP (digital signal processor) to tell it how many boxes there are...and crank it up. In theory, I could buy "enough" boxes for what I'm doing now...and buy a box here or there as budgets allow (and needs arise) down the road. Thoughts? This is a "hobby" for me. I literally make more on the deductions and depreciations than I do on the paychecks...but damn, it's fun. I can't really afford any of this, but I can move some money around and still be able to eat if I buy more gear. Anyone here in the business? Any recommendations? I don't have any real dealers around here, where I can go to listen and demo gear...there's some DJ stuff for sale around here, but that's about it. Anyone worked with D.A.S. gear before? I hear (no pun) good things about their stuff and I simply can't afford Meyer Sound, or Turbosound, right now (although Turbo has a nice bandpass sub that I'm looking at, with a 3,000w amp on board, for not-hateful money). I'd loveloveLOVE a Turbosound Flashlight/Floodlight system...but it's not even in the "blow the savings account" budget. And, dead-nuts reliable as they are...they're still passive, and I'd have to build amp racks and carry more gear (and have more crap on stage). But DAMN they're nice stuff. And they're "O-G" Turbosound, back when they were actually designed and built in Britain, before they started outsourcing stuff... Anyway. That was just stream of consciousness blathering while I wait for my dryer to finish so I can go to bed. Any input appreciated, even if it's "damn, dude...you have a problem..."  | ||
| Court |
I need to go through and read this carefully . . . you have an interesting situation and some great options. Key, in giving it a quick read, is to best postition yourself to keep the most options open for the future. Just headed from The Outer Banks to the farm . . . on the final leg of an epic road trip. When I get home I'm going to dp some studying. Fun stuff ! | ||
| Ourdee |
And here I am concerned about buying 4 4ohm 25 watt exciters to make a polystyrene and end grain balsa flat panel speaker system. | ||
| Ratbuell |
That sounds super cool...but probably wouldn't tour very well! (although at 2am I bet I'd MUCH rather load polystyrene-and-balsa into the truck than birch and neodynium magnets!) I look forward to your insights, Court. I know you have some great resources up there in the undisclosed location...and I have no snobbishness about well-maintained used gear if there's any in your market. I've got the skills. Partner that with some proper gear...and I could potentially own a LARGE slice of the market down here. I just need to figure if I can afford to make the leap - and, once I do, will I have proper time (on top of that pesky day job) to build the business the right way, and make use of the investment. | ||
| Tootal |
I'm not familiar with your EV's but just have a couple of questions. Are they ported? If so does it port to the rear/front/side? My thinking is if they are ported to the rear they won't work outside since you need a wall. I haven't bought any speakers in eons since I built my own but do understand a little about how they work. I didn't port my subs because I like a tight base but I lose efficiency because of it. For outdoors would a front ported speaker be better as in more bang for your buck? And power. I would be looking at a hard cone material with butyl rubber surrounds. | ||
| Tootal |
I learned a trick from watching a YouTube video from PS Audio in Colorado. The owner/engineer answers questions from audiophiles and one asked about subwoofer placement. Now he uses equipment to find the prime location but for starters he puts the sub out in the "audience" area and stands on "stage". He walks around until he finds the best spot that the base is clearly heard/felt. Then he puts his subs in that location on the "stage". I know this might not work as well if the subs end up where you need to be sitting but it might give you an idea for better placement and maybe save you some money. Obviously this works much better when you're dialing in to a single location in a home setting but it seemed logical that even outdoors, placement would have an effect on sound. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Placement always has an effect. So does furnishing. And crowds. I've done sound checks that are gorgeous...then, once doors open and the crowd fills the hall...I start over. I've pretty much given up on sound checks anymore. I have the guys' settings saved in the digital mixing console; I have an excellent baseline; by the time the third song starts, we're golden. My EV's are front-ported. I'm considering bandpass design units for replacement, for efficiency and punch. I always have good bass in the "power alley" between the subs (I run 2 subs, stage left and stage right, each with a pole-mount main speaker on them). IF we have a tall enough stage, I will "couple" the subs - place them together on the floor dead-center, which eliminates the "alley" and makes the bass a little more omni. Omni only works when there's walls to bounce off, though...outside, it's like the difference between dropping a pea in a bowl of water...and dropping a pea in a lake. In the bowl, the ripples reflect and stay coherent much longer; in the lake? They're gone. Quickly. Indoor gigs, I'm good. But outdoors is where I need more power, to fill in for the lack of containment. | ||
| Tootal |
Front ported is as good as it gets for outdoor efficiency. Technically bass is more felt than heard, below 100Hz anyway. Outdoors this is going to be harder to accomplish for sure. Sounds like power is your only option. Just spit balling but what if your front port aimed 45 degrees toward center and then you aimed the speaker slightly to the outside. Would this cover more area? Considering bass is non directional it may not but just a thought. Good luck on finding the cure! | ||
| Ratbuell |
Oh, I know the cure...power. Which requires...money  Subs (at least, front-loaded subs like mine) pointed towards the center will only narrow the alley - at least with an alley, SOME of the folks get some punch. Bandpass subs, however, I believe will radiate more since they're indirectly-fired. Still front-ported, but with an internal-mounted driver with both direct and reflective porting instead of simply reflective ports:  The direct-porting lets the case designer "focus" frequencies as opposed to simply letting the direct radiation "out the front", and that's the big question I have about the Turbos - WHAT frequency did they focus on? Right now, my rig is nice and tight and punchy at 50 Hz, which works very well for kick drums and slap-bass. Where'd they focus the Turbos? Will they punch like the EV's down around 50? Or are they set more for a rumble around 200? Or..is there a better piece of equipment that I could look into? That's the main debate - getting the RIGHT box. That...and the Turbosound subs I'm looking at have a 3,000w amp compared to my current 700w amps. Drawback is size (good for sound, bad for loading/unloading/transport), and weight (79 lbs for mine; 124 lbs for the Turbos - doesn't sound like much, but pick it up and move it a few times and carry it from the truck, down the alley, through the bar or kitchen, to the stage). | ||
| 86129squids |
Fun stuff, Joe and Greg... got a good buddy who designed most of the sound system here at The Shed, currently finishing a big project up in Tazewell TN. I need to catch up with him- when I do, I'll try to remember to tell him about this thread. He's an old-timer Buell fan to boot, one that about no one here's met... got a pristine cherry bomb XB12SS. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
My first job after getting my associates degree was at EAW. I was assembling crossovers. I was there during the big fire. (looked it up: october 1996) They make some great stuff but it costs ALL the money. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I had access to an EAW 850 doublestack rig up until about six weeks ago. Tanks - literally and figuratively. Each cabinet was the size of a soda machine (weighed about as much too), but DAMN they were sexy sounding. Thats the other upside to my smaller powered rig, that's going to be hard to give up - all of it fits in the 8' bed of my pickup, under the tonneau cover. If I go much bigger...a trailer will be required. Which means downsizing the trailer from my 24' carhauler with workbench, heat, air, finished interior, flourescent lighting and outside awning, down to a manageable 8x10 or 8x12...which I'm OK with, just have to find the right buyer for my 24'. |
