| Author | Message | ||
     Torquehd |
Can you provide us with some examples of how Christianity is incapable of providing peace and love? Show me some lies and greed? And I'm talking about Christianity. Not Catholicism or TV "evangelism". | ||
| 86129squids |
Hey Gus. I struggle with that too. Raised Baptist, but with a Catholic father. Got a sister who does God's work- she's a chaplain in the Little Rock Baptist hospital network. I hope she will put in a word for me. We need more of what she does. We have wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAy too much bullshit in our politics, and in our world. | ||
| Gusm2 |
How about the sectarianism that exists between Catholics and protestants, I was brought up in Scotland in the 70's it was rife then and still very much alive to a certain degree, Ireland is still a very divided country, I have also visited the Vatican in Rome where the wealth and opulence on show is frankly obscene yet every Sunday they are passing a plate around for the poor folks to shore up the coffers a little more, we don't really have the TV blood sucker's in this country but I am aware it's a big thing in the US, I do not say or use any of this language lightly and having spent quite a few years studying different ideologies and beliefs have formed my own opinions. Most of what's written in the Bible are rehashed accounts of earlier stories and 'myths' dating back to Babylonian and Mesopotamian times way before even Judaism was founded. I will concede and agree there are good and bad in every walk of life but a caring all knowing all seeing creator.....I don't think so It's more about crowd control Peace. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's more about crowd control When you are talking organized religions, organizations of men, you are spot on. I've written a long boring analysis on the concepts of guilt vs. shame, & the religions that use them to manipulate people. Happy to go into it if you're interested, or you could look it up, but that's not relevant to the 3 questions, being of human construction. Most religions are in large part supposed to be a manual on how to get along. Obviously there's a broad range of success at that.  The late great George Carlin has a wonderful rant on the 10 Commandments, and deconstructs some of them, fairly, as "obey the Elders" & "maintain the monopoly". Others, that most feel are just good sense ( like don't murder ) he picks on a bit unfairly, but it's still a funny & thought provoking comedy routine. Yet I would generally argue that faith in a being beyond mortal comprehension isn't necessarily a bad idea. Our understanding of the universe is very limited. And there's a lot of "wow, that's unlikely" stuff that we have no explanation for, like life, ( anti entropy ) and how the Universe began. It's possible that most of those unknowns will be figured out someday. Until then we have a recursive series of concepts to contemplate. Let us postulate that the Big Bang theory is correct, and our bubble of space time was created in a rush of energy to matter conversion from an unknown source. Perhaps a leak from another universe or the collapse of the previous one. That leaves us with unknowables. Beyond the singularity, we can't know what happened, the Bang erased it. Or assume it all comes from the will of a god. That leaves us asking where she came from. The Judeo-Christian bible discusses Creation & God saying "look what I built", presumably to his fellow gods, or maybe classmates in Universal Architecture 202. That leaves with "who created the gods?" Recursive. Some faiths just skip over Creation and start their histories with men battling besides the gods for power, or the gods battling bad guys to save us human types. The Indian tales read like military science fiction with flying laser armed chariots & nuclear strikes. There's some great SF that is inspired by the Vedas. ( aka stole from ) So... Believe as you will. Please don't force your beliefs on others, or we'll have trouble. After all, what fun would life be without making fun of other's nutty ideas?  | ||
| Gusm2 |
I would never force my non-belief on others, only venting my opinion..... after all freedom of speech is still allowed or is it ? | ||
| Sifo |
How about the sectarianism that exists between Catholics and protestants, I was brought up in Scotland in the 70's it was rife then and still very much alive to a certain degree, Ireland is still a very divided country, I have also visited the Vatican in Rome where the wealth and opulence on show is frankly obscene yet every Sunday they are passing a plate around for the poor folks to shore up the coffers a little more, we don't really have the TV blood sucker's in this country but I am aware it's a big thing in the US, I do not say or use any of this language lightly and having spent quite a few years studying different ideologies and beliefs have formed my own opinions. Most of what's written in the Bible are rehashed accounts of earlier stories and 'myths' dating back to Babylonian and Mesopotamian times way before even Judaism was founded. I will concede and agree there are good and bad in every walk of life but a caring all knowing all seeing creator.....I don't think so It's more about crowd control Peace. Seems to me that you are colored by local issues. I would agree that the Catholic church is filled with problems. They also do some great things. Organized religions are just that. Organized by men/women. Winds up being very different than the roots of the religion. I'm pretty sure the problems you are observing are problems with people. It's not like we don't see those same problems outside of organized religions. Having said that, some organized religions are simply evil. Why? Not because they are a religion, but because they were organized by people for bad reasons. I'll offer Scientology as a well documented example. So what's your thoughts on the 3 questions? | ||
| Torquehd |
I don't have any cultural insight into the Irish Catholic vs Protestant struggle but I've heard it's a big deal over there. What I do know is that a lot of Catholics don't like Protestants because they were originally taught that it's impossible to get to God outside of the Catholic church. That evolved into, if you're a Protestant we get to kill you. Naturally, the people who were being murdered by the Catholic church were not very happy about being murdered. Although I have no first hand experience with this, I really don't like the Catholic church for murdering millions of innocent people. That's evil. Now that doesn't mean I don't like Catholics. One of my best friends for several years was a devout Catholic and we talked about our differences on the reg. I loved him like a brother and I had peace knowing we both believed in Jesus. He and I are both going to Heaven when we die and the peace I have from that is exactly contrary to what your earlier claim seems to suggest, Mr Gus. Yes, man-made religions are Evil. Any religion that says that you have to be a bonafide member of their cult is wrong. However, Christianity is also an organized religion and while yes humans are evil and if you look around you can find evil Christians, Christianity itself is the opposite of evil. Churches all across the US do good things for folks on the regular. Food drives, community service, disaster cleanup, sometimes things like financial aid. Not to mention helping folks realize that all they need to do is say, "I can't save myself, I need to accept Jesus' grace to get to heaven". Unlike Islam, nothing in Jesus' teaching involves harming or killing or taking advantage of others. The exact opposite. Loving, forgiving, giving to those in need, literally every good thing. | ||
| 86129squids |
Tq, +1000. Patrick, love your sense of humor. Gus, keep searching. I've ended up pretty much agnostic, by virtue of sheer logic, but I have a very strong suspicion there's someone behind the veil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager | ||
| Gusm2 |
Squids mate I believe I'm agnostic too, but the search does indeed continue, On a much lighter note I'll be making a visit to Costa Mesa speedway this October for the first time so if any of y'all(see what I did there) are there I'll say hi. No politics or religion though 😉 | ||
| Aesquire |
If by agnostic you mean "I don't know" then you are in a better position than most people. You are starting with a truth, and can work from there. I do admit to picking on Atheists, sometimes. Not people that decide that they can figure out a rational code of conduct by reason, enlightened self interest, and compassion for their fellow man. They don't always succeed, but it's usually a good try. The rejection of the teaching of the elders is natural when you begin adolescence. The ones I pick on are the people that never move beyond that. Dead solid certainty that there is no thing beyond your comprehension is often far more destructive to the thought process than believing in invisible angels watching over you. I suppose, when it comes to all people of faith, you have to grade on a curve. I propose one mile marker is if you believe some Supreme Being will physically intervene in your life. I'm not buying that... but "miracles" do happen, and what do I know? It's dangerous to declare any choice made by Man as "God's Will" or to blame bad things, ditto. Or to excuse not caring about the quality of your work. "If the circuit board isn't plugged in right, it's God's will" is the attitude some places in some cultures. And, it's obvious from history, that evil men can exploit faith to evil ends. One look at the People's Republic of China's history & body count should be enough of a warning, but it isn't. | ||
| Sifo |
I guess one thing that I'm really confused about... When you say "I find it abhorrent the hatered and intolerance that survives to this day in our supposedly civilised world" I'm not really clear how that relates to organized religion. Certainly here in the US, and I assume in the UK also, the world isn't controlled by any religious authority. Hatred and intolerance are also personal issues, so not really governed by any organization. Anyway, the implication seems to be that if we had no organized religions, we wouldn't have hatred and intolerance. That myth is easily dispelled by the fact that these things are often displayed by people who reject religion. Dare I make the point that if I were to claim that I find blacks, or gays, or any other of a multitude of slices of society to be abhorrent, the PC police are likely to be all over that as an intolerant view.  | ||
| Etennuly |
Ya ever study the actions of a newborn? One of my grand children had all the givings of an early thinker. At less than one month the child would hold it's hand up in front of it's face, move the fingers studying the movement as in learning what thoughts it took to make them move, then how to do it again. All the while the eyes intensely looking. Raising the question how much randomness over the millennia does that take? The amazing part is that was just a moment in that person's life, learned, remembered, then moved on to the next billions of little learning sessions absorbed by a mind that works only at about ten percent of capacity. If the learning curve would just continue. BUT ! If everyone who has been alive never died, and could think and function at 100 percent capacity, people would have little or no use for each other but perhaps to procreate, and the need for that would likely go away for having figured out other ways. It would become chaotic to live. What was the questions? | ||
| Aesquire |
When you say "I find it abhorrent the hatered and intolerance that survives to this day in our supposedly civilised world" I'm not really clear how that relates to organized religion. Certainly here in the US, and I assume in the UK also, the world isn't controlled by any religious authority. Not in the U.S., Not yet. The UK I'm not sure about. The leadership has worshipped the Prophet Marx in various degrees since WW2, and some before. And since I define Leftism as an organized religion, then certainly religion is the #1 murderer in the history of the planet. With the bulk of those murders in the last 120 years. Islam is a distant second. China and Saudi Arabia are close in intolerance of other faiths, in that order. Try & open a Christian church in either. If you're talking just Christians, then for most of the world, the Protestant reformation marks the last religious struggle, except in Ireland, where genocidal policies and the deliberate creation of a religious war continued until a few years ago. Mostly. Amazing that policies of Cromwell, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell from 1650s so dominated Irish politics into the 21st century. But, again, that was a war of occupation, and religious intolerance, deliberately created by The Lord Protector. And in the 1960s some questioned if John F Kennedy could serve it his loyalty was to the Vatican. But that hardly counts, since so few died. And anyone still influenced by the Crusades is an idiot. Unfortunately those still influenced by the Caliphate are not. It's return is an ongoing war, and Transylvania remembers. | ||
| Patches |
1. Is there a God? 1 Timothy 2:2 -8 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 2. What happens when we die? Luke 16:19 -31 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. 3. Are we alone in the Universe? Genesis 1:1 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:26 -28 26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 2: 7 -8 7. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Genesis 2:18 -23 18. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22. And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Genesis 3:20 20. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Psalms 97:6 6. The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. Psalms 102:25 25. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. Psalms 103:19 19. The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. Psalms 104:2 2. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Psalms 115:3 3. But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Psalms 115:16 16. The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. Mark 12:32 32. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: | ||
| Patches |
What came first; the Chicken or the Egg? Chicken- Genesis 2:19 -20 19. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. | ||
| Sifo |
I have to agree that Leftist politics is very much like a religion, perhaps more accurately, cult like. The problem is that the followers will almost certainly not agree. Nothing different there than any other cult. I have to admit to being largely ignorant about the fighting of the Catholics and Protestants in the UK. My intuition has me questioning how much was politics instead of true religious disagreements. The reason I say that is because it seems to be pretty much a local phenomenon. Other areas of the world seem to have them getting along much better. Islam seems to be about the most intolerant religion I can think of, excluding Stateism of course. | ||
| Crusty |
What came first; the Chicken or the Egg? The egg came first. Proof: We eat chicken for dinner and we eat eggs for breakfast. Breakfast comes before dinner, therefore the egg came first. | ||
| Aesquire |
The situation in Ireland is that a Protestant colony was created and grown to rule over and destroy, the Catholic majority, by Cromwell, a Protestant zealot, politician, conquerer, regicide, coup leader, and all around ambitious monster. The British view of that genocidal monster is...different. Big hero, conquerer, preserver of Empire. The cynical version is that a religious war was caused & nurtured, to keep the Irish killing each other, and stop them from raiding Wales and England. Since raids across the Irish Sea to steal sheep, cattle, slaves, and women, was considered great sport for centuries by the Irish, you can see the motivation. Historical revenge, religious ambition, and defensive distraction. Worked pretty well, too. Sure,there was raiding the other way, but the winner wrote the history books. I'm named after a captured English slave who escaped captivity as a shepherd, & while a captive, bored, looking at sheep butts, found Faith. Was considered a crackpot by English priests, and returned to Ireland to preach the Gospel by what we now would consider excessive "persuasion". Again, the views vary in how great a hero he was, as the Christians ( pre-reformation, thus the ( Catholic ) only Church. ) then write the history books. The snake thing is metaphor. In more modern times, the Germans established German speaking enclaves in neighboring countries, then Stalin followed that pattern with Russians shipped en mass to change the demographics of Georgia, Ukraine, etc. See the Russian wars against both to "save" the Russian Speaking Peoples. There is a religious component to those two wars, as well. Catholic vs. Orthodox. Putin is pushing Orthodox Christianity. ( although how cynical he exploits that depends on your opinion of the former KGB leader ) And to bring us up to date, the ongoing war of Islam against the West, & the occupation of Europe. I've discussed elsewhere the unholy alliance between Leftists and Obedient Fundamentalist Islam. Double your intolerance, double your dishonesty ( Alinsky & Taqiyya ) double your murders, double your fun. So, in a sense, Gus has a point. Man made religions are the major source of war for centuries, and IF, like me, you classify the neo Marxist cults as religion, to this day. The Vatican has been waning in power since Henry VIII at least, and by WW2 certainly wasn't a conquering force until the current KGB sponsored Liberation Theology Pope. So we might see a new Crusade someday soon. But against Western Civilization this time. Until then the Last Pope has Twitter. | ||
| Aesquire |
None of the above answers the Questions. IMHO they can't be answered. However, that opinion tweaks my rebellious attitude towards the limited Jesuit teaching I got as a kid. They got all elaborate in reasoning the unreasonable, and the notion that because you can't prove something, proved that thing always stuck in my craw. The discussions at Our Lady Of Great Agony were Python-esque. "That's circular logic, the Parrot is Dead!" ... "No it's not!" ... There's more than one reason I changed Faiths as an adult. However, I will not proselytize. ( but our heaven is cooler ) | ||
| Aesquire |
I have to agree that Leftist politics is very much like a religion, perhaps more accurately, cult like. The problem is that the followers will almost certainly not agree. Nothing different there than any other cult. Yep. What is the difference between faith & cult? Public Relations. | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Patches |
catholic means "universal" and "inclusive."  1 Samuel 5:1 -5 KJV 1. And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod. 2. When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. 3. And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again. 4. And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him. 5. Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day. | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Aesquire |
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| Patches |
Gods words not mine. Hosea 4:6 -7 KJV 6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7. As they were increased, so they sinned against me: [therefore] will I change their glory into shame. Romans 1:16 -32 (KJV) 16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://babylonbee.com/news/new-evidence-for-athei sm-exhibit-just-large-empty-warehouse | ||
| Patches |
Deuteronomy 28:27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. 1 Samuel 5:9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 1 Samuel 6:4 Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords. 1 Samuel 6:11 And they laid the ark of the LORD upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods. 1 Samuel 6:17 And these are the golden emerods which the Philistines returned for a trespass offering unto the LORD; for Ashdod one, for Gaza one, for Askelon one, for Gath one, for Ekron one; emerod  | ||
| Crusty |
Wow! That looks like a 24 Carat Turd! | ||
| Jaimec |
I should've known this wasn't: 1) What is your name? 2) What is your quest? 3) What is the average air velocity of an unladen swallow? | ||
| Ourdee |
Breakfast: The chicken is involved. The cow is involved. But, The pig is committed. |
