| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Saw this today at RoadracingWorld.com: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/asma-bans-icon -helmets-citing-safety-concerns/ | ||
| Greg_e |
But could it be that more entry level racers are choosing them, and that these entry level people are more likely to have the type of crash where their head hits the ground? What do you do when a $1000 Arai helmet hits the ground and causes a concussion? Happened to someone I know that races MiniGP, was one of his first races on a 300-400 class and he slid in a corner at about 100mph which seemed to turn into a high side and flung him some distance. He was out when the safety crew got there. The helmet physically looked good with barely some scratches on the paint. He was out of racing for about 4 weeks. Is my cheapo Scorpion EXO-R2000 (a Snell 2010 helmet) a death trap? I hope not, it fits well and is quiet for the 60 odd MPH that I get up to on the straights on the KAYO. | ||
| Ourdee |
But could it be that more entry level racers are choosing them, and that these entry level people are more likely to have the type of crash where their head hits the ground?That is still my thought. | ||
| Crusty |
Many people confuse cheap with inferior. If the helmet has the proper thickness of EPS on the inside, then it would be as effective as an $1000.00 premium helmet. I'm also wondering if it might be the skill level of the crash victims and the fact that they can't afford a more expensive helmet. | ||
| Shoggin |
Theres no precise way to compare someones crash with someone elses. Maybe the $1000 Arai guy would have been dead? Hard to say. I believe there has to be more to the story for them to ban a whole brand! IMO, some helmet MFGs build safe helmets with giant R&D budgets. Others copy those helmets. I think Icon is more of a 'style' brand. I won't buy a $1600 helmet just because it has my favorite racers number on it but I'll spend some cash for a well known brands latest head saver every 5 years. It's easy to see the levels of quality and materials with a quick youtube search. ABS, vs, poly, vs, fiberglass, vs Carbon fiber. There certainly IS a whole lot to safe helmet tech. Your Scorpion was a good helmet, but now that it's well past its safe date and helmet tech has come a long way in almost a decade. I'd buy a brandname that fits well. $500 isn't much divided by it's 5 year lifecycle. | ||
| Court |
>>>If the helmet has the proper thickness of EPS on the inside There is a lot more to it than just the thickness of the EPS. It's the shape, the shell and the ability of the entire system to work flawlessly in concert to dissipate and re-channel energy. While "more expensive" doesn't, necessarily, imply "higher quality" there is likely some correlation. Last year I bought the first helmet I'd purchased since 1995 . . . Arai always sent me a couple a year and I really grew fond of the Arai helmets. But . . when it was my own $$$ . . . I started looking around and ended up with the Shoei Neotek. I've no date to support anything . . . but am perfectly comfortable wearing it. I've morphed, after being a long time cynic, to enjoying the flip style helmet and the construction seems top quality. I'm about to start turning some unused Arai helmets into table lamps. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I used up my Neotec in May; it served me well. Nice wide field of vision, good ventilation, good fit, handled my Scala setup just fine. LOVED the flip-down sunshade. Bit of wind noise though. After meeting Bambi in May, it got replaced with a **one pound lighter** Klim modular which, so far, I love. Slightly narrower field of vision - the visor opening isn't as tall, but seems to have the same peripheral spread - but quite quiet and a great fit. And a pound...is HUGE. I have also become a fan of the transition visor - it doesn't react super-fast which was my concern, but it also doesn't get black-black when darkened, so not really an issue at all when I ride from sunlight into tree-shade. biggest issue I have at the moment is that my new Sena speakers have a taller installed height than the old Scalas, and while they don't mess with my ears...they will knock my earplugs askew, making for more noise. I may deepen the speaker well in the EPS to alleviate. I've used up too many helmets to go cheap. Spending three months in a 26-bed brain injury ward, as the ONE patient who could talk back to the staff, was an eye-opener as to how bad my get-off in 2008 COULD have been. Not that it was an easy go...but at least my head stayed relatively straight. Well...not much worse than it was going in, anyway. | ||
| Greg_e |
My Scorpion is only about 2 years old from manufacture date, so should be fine. | ||
| Jaimec |
An update: Not just ICON but any helmet with a polycarbonate hard shell: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/asma-expands-i con-helmet-ban/ | ||
| Ourdee |
I had to check the composition of my Shoei. Fiberglass. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
I race a Bell Star, it's one of the nicest helmets I've worn. Very quiet and stable at speed. | ||
| Greg_e |
Mine was on closeout, I bet it is polycarb. From what I remember, the polycarb allows the helmet to bounce more once it hits the pavement, which causes repeated impacts. The fiberglass and other fiber matte based helmets tend to crush and deform when they hit which reduces the bounce back. I'll have to check my helmet when I get home to see and then gauge my risk level and decide if I continue using it. I would have expected SNELL to withhold a rating for helmets like this, pretty sure they did the initial testing on the info above, probably back in the 90's. Pretty sure I read about this in an old Cycleworld or one of the other prominent magazines back in the day. | ||
| Greg_e |
Are these problem helmets SNELL approved? | ||
| Jaimec |
FWIW, my Nolan helmets are all polycarbonate. Unfortunately I HAVE "crash tested" two of them over the past decade, the most recent being this past June. In both cases, I was unaware my head had even contacted the ground until I saw the helmet. Maybe for racing competition it is a wise move to go with fiberglass or carbon fiber, but for regular street use I think I'm fine with the polycarbonate. Nolan DOES make a line of fiberglass helmets under the X-Lite brand. | ||
| Ourdee |
I would even go so far as to say; I would rather have a polycarb/thermoplastic helmet on in a crash than to not have a helmet on in a crash. | ||
| Greg_e |
Looks like SNELL does now certify polycarb helmets, they said there was a change in construction and polymer that allowed them to pass. But there have also been critics that say maybe the latest SNELL is too difficult and causes the shell to be so durable that it no longer absorbs energy and transfers it all to the foam (and your head). Again, this was in a motorcycle magazine some long time ago. I've generally regarded the ECE testing as being good enough for me and may be more difficult in some areas than SNELL. | ||
| Jaimec |
From what I can recall, Snell finally conceded and their testing methods have changed since that article appeared. Dr. David Thom had maintained that the Snell rating might've protected you in a high speed crash better than a DOT helmet BUT it conveyed far more energy at a longer duration to your skull than a DOT-only helmet and increased the chance of a concussion. The DOT standard might've allowed a higher INITIAL impact energy, but it also limited the amount of time that energy was allowed to reach your skull. At the time, there was no such limitation in the Snell testing. I confess, I haven't been keeping up with all of the safety changes since I let my MSF certification lapse a few years back so I am not aware of the current Snell testing procedures and standards. | ||
| Greg_e |
Me either. | ||
| Rick_a |
I've tested a couple polycarbonate helmets, unfortunately. A Nolan Street Fighter and HJC CL-SP. The former with a front impact, the latter with a side impact. Both left me with a heavy headache the next day, but I was fine. Both impacts had me thrown a considerable distance. Neither were very expensive helmets...in fact, I got them both on sale for a fraction of their retail price. If it's from a long standing reputable manufacture with a good safety standard I'm cool with it. I like Arai and HJC for fit. The HJC's I can easily afford. | ||
| Ourdee |
I have always seamed to have enough on for the impact at hand. Was close to knocked out once. Walking side ways and had to sit down. | ||
| Fast1075 |
No one brought up the "it has to fit properly to work properly" thing. I have crashed a lot over the years, the fastest crash was with an original Bell Star in the 70's. Helmet did it's job and was held together by the liner. The shell was broken badly. The fact is, if you are unlucky, your brain gets scrambled no matter what helmet you are wearing. Enough "G" and you are dead. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/icon-motorspor ts-releases-statement-regarding-asma-helmet-ban/ I'm in the position that my old helmet needs replacement just for age. Pity, as the old modular HJC & Suomy race lid, ( dot & Euro spec ) are amazingly crash virgins. Fit is so important I actually go to the dealer to buy..... But now I wonder about the age of the foam.... My Suomy was three years old I bought it. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
"Maybe for racing competition it is a wise move to go with fiberglass or carbon fiber, but for regular street use I think I'm fine with the polycarbonate. " I can't disagree with this more. Racing may have areas of higher speed, but I would suspect there is just as much chance, if not more chance, of a high impact to the head in day to day riding. Vehicles, concrete barriers, trees, etc etc. Roads aren't any softer than a track surface. Just because it's a racing crash, doesn't mean the person was going any faster than a normal road speed. All but one of my track crashes were low speed 40ish mph. Bouncing your head is bouncing your head. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Add to (or subtract from) that the fact that racing makes a concerted effort to remove any items from impact zones, so the chances are greatly increased that a racing crash will result in a slide as opposed to hitting a solid object. Racing is probably LESS dangerous than street riding. Greater speeds, sure, but contrast that with open "runoff zones", a population ALL of the same mind and generally same skillset, some extremely specific clothing and gear requirements, and a very controlled environment. Compare all that to cagers. Mailboxes. Light poles. Traffic lights. Wildlife. Unpredictable road surfaces. Cross traffic. Less-restrictive clothing rules (if any). I'd say you're more likely to hit something solid, hard, on the street than on a track. | ||
| 86129squids |
 ... Thanks for all the great input. I'm way past due to grab a new brain bucket and some riding boots, looking to buy once it gets warm again. All the talk about EPS and liners reminded me of a few new tech helmet interiors I'd read about a while back, pretty nifty stuff- I'll see if I can get back to the info. Pretty sure it was in a paper copy of Cycle World or Motorcyclist. | ||
| Crusty |
I really like the suspended concept that 6D is using. However, my Schuberth C3 fits me better than any other helmet I've ever worn. It fits like they used my head as a last for the liner. Of course, since it's a modular, it isn't legal for racing. I just won't go racing with it. | ||
| Jaimec |
Crusty, the new Nolan X-Lite modular helmet apparently passed ECE testing as both a full-face AND an open face helmet. Something to consider (but the X-Lite helmets are a lot more expensive than their regular line). | ||
| Griffmeister |
I thought I remembered reading an article in a cycle mag many years ago concerning helmets. Seems to me that SNELL, the standard used for racing, did not approve any poly helmets because they were flammable. Other than that, many would have easily passed the impact/puncture/abrasion test as those were comparable to DOT standards. For the street then DOT would suffice. You can still buy unapproved helmets like the ones Harley riders prefer to use in the helmet law states (did I just say that? ). | ||
| Zac4mac |
I've had nothing but Nolan Modulars since the late 90s-early naughts. N-100 IIRC, now an N-103 with internal sunscreen. quieter than its predecessors. Mile sprints don't allow modulars so for them I have an AGV that's ECE. A fly hit at 175mph -  | ||
| Greg_e |
The C3 is an ECE rated modular as well. | ||
| Jaimec |
The biggest issue I knew regarding polycarbonate helmets was the fact that they can be weakened by petroleum fumes. In other words, if you store your helmets in a garage where there are potential petroleum fumes it could weaken the polycarbonate shell. Since I keep my helmet in the house that isn't an issue. Also, modern vehicles have sealed fuel systems so gasoline vapors from parked vehicles in the garage wouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure about gasoline powered equipment like lawn mowers or chainsaws, however. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I've got a Bell. It's lighter than any helmet I've owned in the past, and it has Flying Tiger graphics on it. I have no intention of finding out how well it works, but I hope it will serve me well in the event of a crash. I guess we'll see. | ||
| Sifo |
The biggest issue I knew regarding polycarbonate helmets was the fact that they can be weakened by petroleum fumes. I've heard that painting them can also degrade the plastics. Not an issue for the composites. |
