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Macbuell
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I saw that Glock is making the 19X available to civilians. Looks like a nice weapon but I wish they used a longer barrel. The SIG M17 has a 4.7 inch barrel. For military applications I cannot understand the shorter barrel.
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Rick_a
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My VP9 has a full sized frame and a compact slide. It is not a hindrance and carries reasonably well in an OWB holster.

The 19X is cool. They should've put out a variant with the manual safety. I don't know what their hangup is.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 04:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I just want to stop them, I don't want to kill anyone,"

Ugh.

Even at six years of age, I was taught (and still understand to this day) that guns only come out when you are prepared to take a life.

Guns.
Are.
Lethal.

Wanna "stop them"? Grab a Louisville Slugger, or a 3 wood. Lemme know how that works out for you...especially after they get up again. Even MORE pissed off than when they went down.

I know, preaching to the choir here...but statements like that still piss me off because they're SO stupid...
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think it's a matter of, "I don't want to die" trumps "I don't want to kill anybody!"
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Aesquire
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://9gag.com/gag/a3KL44Q

ak-47 slowmo... very short. These guys have too much fun with a high speed camera.

Grab a Louisville Slugger, or a 3 wood. In my case that's automatically assault with a deadly weapon. Like a Kendo student with a shinai.

And, sure, you can just hurt someone with a baseball bat. Never mind the odds of death from shattered bone slivers or blood clots. ( watch CSI type shows for a while )

Some years ago I visited a Tai Chi dojo in PA, and followed along, best I could. ( different school ) After class I was talking with the Sifu and his student instructors.

He was trying to impress on his students that Tai Chi was a Martial art, not just dance.

I told them I usually do one pass, ( short form ) slow and in meditation, then a second at 2/3 -3/4 "fight speed" to finish up. I was asked to show part of the form, "fast".

He started laughing right after I started. I apologized for my sloppiness, and he told me that wasn't the problem, it was that I was muttering the moves, not by name, but by broken body part.

He asked me to do it again, fast, but call out the moves, out loud this time. "Clavicle, knee, elbow, throat, break femur, dislocate elbow, dislocate hip, shatter skull, stop breath......." Students looking a bit spooked at this point.

When I finished, he turns to his students, tells them he can tell my Sifu trained in Okinawa, and that the older Mainland China form he teaches breaks people in a different order. Then he did his form at close to full speed, the poor students.......

There's a basic part of teaching martial arts. You have to be notably better than the student, when he or she begins, so that they respect the knowledge and will listen. Later, if you do your job well, they may surpass you, but first day you have to dominate.

These young adults had that same "Oh Crap!" look on their faces. I don't think they'd ever seen their Sifu go full speed. And right after the "foreign" guest called out the brutal damage each move produces in the real world? Priceless.
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You mentioned Okinawan. My brother took Shurin Ru? It was an Okinawan style of martial arts. It seemed to be a block and counter type of defense. I just remember when he twisted a guys arm that brought his head down and my brother did a front snap kick and the instructor just said, "removal of face!"
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Ratbuell
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oh, I understand anything can be deadly (including the human body) if it is properly utilized. But the "hurt someone with a gun" theory...well...doesn't hold water.

Guns are not evil. Guns are not autonomous. However...guns have one purpose, and one purpose only.

You don't wave them around - that's brandishing.

You don't just point them at bad guys to "scare them off" - bad guys have their own, and they have no qualms about killing you when you get in their way.

Guns are there to take lives. Period, end of discussion.

Because of that fact...guns demand respect. Liberals, the press, the sheeple at large...they don't understand that.

Hell...society doesn't understand the concept of "respect" at ALL anymore.
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Aesquire
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There are lots of Kung Fu etc. Moves with poetic names. Eagle's claw, Ride the Whirlwind, hand hammer, they are endless. Heard a Chinese name for a strike once, & asked for the cool translation. Sifu paused, "hurts so much you can't control bowels".......

My Sifu treated Tai Chi as a martial art. 3rd degree black belt in Aikido. Also stressed meditation. And could put the old concepts in modern physiological terms. Highly respected Bruce Lee. We watched films of his not-movie classes.

To keep us from getting bored he made sure we knew what each block wrecked. One short form had one punch. No kicks, just one punch. That stunned the CO2 sensor nerve cluster and you quit breathing.

Later, in SCA rattan combat I've seen that cluster hit in tournament. It just stings, & everyone blows it off as light. Then they crumple like a puppet with cut strings.

Since I do first aid & referee, I know how to deal with it, thanks to Sifu Hall. Otherwise it'd scare you half to death. ( instead of a quarter ; ) )
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Aesquire
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You carry a gun to stop a violent attack. Period.

In raw unvarnished terms that means doing enough damage to stop the other guy. "Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure". Most of the time in civilian life, you count it as a win if they run away & you don't have to hurt anyone. But it's also a win if the attacker is beheaded. Lots more paperwork.

But you and/or others live. That's the bottom line.

When they invent stunners we can revisit the moral and philosophical aspects.

But yeah. "Shoot to wound" isn't realistic. Doesn't really happen. And opens you to deep legal trouble including civil suit.
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Court
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 12:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting.

The 2 guys standing there pointing weapons at each other waiting to see who DOESN'T shoot first is a poor time to start thinking about how you want to use a gun..

Just my $0.02.

(Message edited by court on February 03, 2018)
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Rick_a
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A guns purpose is to reliably and accurately fire a projectile. Like any implement it's up to the user to determine the ultimate use.



On fighting arts, I'm a fan of Death Kwon Do.
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Aesquire
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court, I agree that those who can........ ( reply to deleted comment ) & I'm just a civilian sport martial arts guy. The SCA fighting is the one I stuck with, I'm just a casual, short term student in various arts like Jukado.

My Bruce Lee reference is really to his synthesis of multiple schools and taking the best of each and making a "best of" school. I mean no comparison between us. Neil Pert vs. Garage band Johnny Rotten, at my best.

I have been, thanks to my Tai Chi Sifu, Jim Hall, been teaching the background science of the Arts for twenty odd years. In part because SCA armored combat is a "lost art". Fencing has a continuum of schools. The local school that grooms Olympians can trace it's teaching back to literally "3 Musketeers" days, when the Rapier was state of the art. The German "half sword" schools at least had illustrated text books to resurrect their art. ( on my shelf next to The Iron Rose, the collected Anvil, Book of Five Rings, & others ) But armored broadsword & shield combat has a long gap. Where a Kendo school can point to unbroken links to Miyamoto Musashi, we had to relearn the basics as it was too obsolete to save in Europe.

So in the lists ( aka ring, in boxing ) & over camp fires, we've synthesized the form, informed by modern sports physiology and other martial arts, but rooted in the physics of the eternal struggle between armor and weapons. As one expert I know puts it "they did it that way, because it works."

NASA borrowed Henry the 8th's foot armor from the Tower of London to learn how to make ankle joints for the Apollo space suits. ( no one had to walk in the suits before then. German designed derivative of deep sea suits were used until Apollo....... until now really. )

Modern motorcycle armor is adapted from medieval armor padding worn under the steel, with Knee & elbow cops.

The Fairbairn-Sykes British commando dagger of WW2, "developed" by Singapore's finest, is simply a Knight's dagger, down to the skull crusher pommel and blade meant to probe the eye slots of a Great Helm.

( while I am NOT a knife fighter, at a tournament I was "given the handicap" of fighting men with sword & shield equipped with 9" "target" ( think cooking pot lid ) & dagger. This spawned actual terror in the "ring" after holding the field in Bear Pit competition. ( king of the hill..... win & stay to fight the next, & the next &....)

Would I want to fight a mugger in street clothes with those arms? Hell No.

God made man. Sam Colt made man equal.
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Aesquire
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

To be clear I worked my way up to mediocre, at best, in any art I've studied. So I know where the ten ring is on the target, I'm aiming for it, but I'm pleased to make any score at all, & if I hit the target, somewhere legal & don't miss it completely? Ecstatic.

I bet most of the shooters here can beat me. But I'd enjoy the match with any of you.
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I couldn't agree more Rick about the M17 deal. Just purchase off the shelf, and save $16 million of the $17 million.

I think you got your VP9 before the MAC "gauntlet" test video was released. Have you seen it? Spoiler: Just don't drop the thing in water, or ...

Glock perfection? No, but darn impressive, albeit blocky, uncomfortable, and ugly. Though I've grown to appreciate its simple form.

If only someone would invent a reliable integral pneumatic slide damper allowing major lightening of the slide.

My Suomi M31 has such a feature, but it is straight blow back and MASSIVE.

There's gotta be a way.
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Rick_a
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I got my VP9 after MAC's hissy fit video. My other guns are 1911's and a CZ. They are all tightly fitted with a ton of bearing surface on slide rails. None would do very well in sand/mud tests. They have to deal with lint and the occasional dampness, so I make do.

Yes, I quite respect the Glock simplicity and toughness, but it's irritating that they refuse to change the guns ergonomically. The basic grip dimensions have remained unchanged since the 80's. If they at least got rid of the hump at the bottom, or offered a replaceable backstrap like everybody else, I'd be game to buy one. Instead they offer add on backstraps that don't do much at all.

The Glock doesn't do well with ignition reliability after submerged, either. The striker cups have to be swapped to the "maritime" versions which are apparently somewhat of unobtanium.

My main criteria are that I can shoot it well, and enjoy shooting it. All the torture test stuff eludes me. If it can do several hundred rounds between cleanings that's good enough for me.

I didn't know you had a Suomi. Transferable?
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Aesquire
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

More and more manufacturers are building military arsenal friendly features into guns. Digital codes and placing the serial number where it can be scanned easily without touching the gun in it's case, for example.

Pretty much every major maker has built a service pistol in pursuit of the next big contract.

Ruger built their version, then realized that even if they won the competition, the actual contracts for production and spares would be given to anyone who under bid them on their own design. So they gave up the long shot gamble and sell them retail, the better odds choice.

I can usually find a flaw in any service pistol. What the switches do, how they work, & where they are, all are important factors.

Example...... Glock. I respect them but pretty isn't a factor. Having to squeeze the trigger on a closed slide to disassemble for cleaning has spawned a new market in ballistic capture pads to reduce accidental property damage and death. Wtf?

Sure, YOU'RE not going to shoot your water heater. You're too smart for that. But design features that are stupid keep getting into production, & have for centuries.

See the Colt SAA 1873. Unsafe to carry fully loaded. SOP is to load one, skip one, load rest, & carry with hammer down on the empty chamber. That's a five shot six shooter. That was a service pistol too.
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Shoggin
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2018 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Rick A, I'd never heard of that 'issue' with the Glocks before and had to Google it (way down the page BTW).

I changed from a Kimber 1911 in stainless (that did NOT like the ocean) to keeping a G23 and G17 on the boat so I'm understandably curious. Isn't it an ammo issue? A sealed primer in a cartridge shouldn't be affected by being submerged? I dunno.
I didn't read to far but looks like the "maritime striker" is slightly longer and blunt to effectively just hit the primer harder?
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Shoggin
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2018 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I bought a G19 a long time ago and realized they are cheap, accurate, disposable, and ridiculously reliable. They fit me pretty well (Gen 4 backstrap #2), but once I got over my 'pretty 1911' mentality, I have no problem carving up the plastic to make it suit me.

Guns are very much like motorcycles these days, in that there are so many that are just so dang good, it's easy to pick exactly what fits you and your usage perfectly. What I do and where I do it will be different than you, but I'll still keep searching for the perfect one!
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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2018 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just watched a Youtube video of the 5 most coveted or loved for no reason or some such video. It was a slam to anyone that owned one of the five listed.

I own two of them...
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Rick_a
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2018 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Speaking of the "perfect one"...I was extremely close to purchasing a Beretta Centurion today. It would be nice to have for nostalgic purposes. I carried M9's around for a few years and was quite taken by it at the time. This one excited me, for some reason. It just looks and balances perfect with the 4-1/4" barrel vs 5." I may have to go back for it. I can't remember the last time I saw one.

The cups simply prevent hydraulic lock of the striker for ignition reliability if submerged.

I doubt it's something many people would need.
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Rick_a
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2018 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is pretty good. Some foul language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDk5BP_I15M
I have a CZ. The wife wants a PPK/S, and he hates 1911's with a passion while I love them. That's okay.
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Rick_a
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is exactly what that Beretta looks like:


...and while I was looking for pics, I found this handy chart:


Most pictures found show Centurions with a lot of carry wear. This example has none...but will in time.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That`s a great chart, thanks for posting it
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Ducbsa
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/11/03/parents-d ead-robber-really-mad-victim-gun/
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Rick_a
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Seems every person shot and killed in the commission of a forcible felony was very funny, life of the party, everybody loved them, and they were going to school to start a better life.
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Court
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 09:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>> A head shot is personal,

Yeah . . . .so is an armed robbery.

Kiddo rolled the dice and lost . . . . that's gambling.
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Shoggin
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for thatís side by side comparison Rick. I learned something today: )

I agree itís not a conversion most people would need, but I wonder why every firing pin isnt just made that way? I shoot a lot, but have yet to wear out a firing pin.

Great Beretta chart, thanks! Never a fan of a DA/SA trigger though.
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Tootal
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Top 5 Most Overrated Handguns

Yep that's one of the video's. He really slams the P7 but his complaints are only partly true. I have the M13 so more rounds and the grip fits me nice. I love the squeeze cocker and changing magazines is super quick. The accuracy is amazing and the recoil is nill due to the gas piston delay. An item he complains about. I only have two complaints and that is it is a little heavy and the rounds rattle in the magazine. Not good if your sneaking up on somebody!
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Ratbuell
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shame the mother in the article didn't teach her son to NOT ROB PEOPLE AT GUNPOINT.
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Hootowl
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

ďIf there was to be a death, it was not the place of the employee at Pizza Hut. That is the place of law enforcement,Ē said Hairston

No, it's the place of the courts to impose a death sentence, not the police.

If the police had shot her son, I'm sure she'd be just as bent out of shape...if not more so.

By and large, cops shoot to protect their own lives, just as the Pizza hut employee did. Self defense has nothing to do with law enforcement, or trials, or punishment. It sure saves a lot of time and effort though. There wasn't "to be a death" that day, but her son's actions changed that.

I feel bad for the Pizza Hut guy. Justified or not, it's a heavy burden for a decent person to bear.
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