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Archive through July 26, 2017Phelan30 07-26-17  05:04 pm
         

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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good to hear Phelan. I'm using the black ones with the washer in them on my Buell as I had a hard time getting it to seal many years ago. Haven't had a problem since. I did have to file the TB to make room for them but they worked well.

Before I tore it apart again I tried the blue silicone ones but the manifold was too long. I got them to fit but after tightening the flanges they had oozed into the intake area blocking flow. I would have left it that way if they had sealed but no luck. If the manifold is not square with the intake surface then the seals are having to seal an oval instead of a circle. There's only so many minutes of angle that the seals can make up. That's my theory anyway. Hopefully by this weekend I'll know if I'm right.
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg, you sir are a true professional!

Not anymore! Professional's get paid!!


Wouldn't it be great if some Harley bigshot saw this and offered to compensate me for all my headaches with these POS heads!!

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Two_seasons
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tootal wrote..."That is an awesome ride isn't it! I went to a Rider magazine rally in Cody Wyoming and ended up taking that ride with Clement Salvadori. That man can not only write but he can ride!"

It sure was . Tomorrow will mark my 3rd time in physical therapy (compression & nerve damage) since that trip . As I was saying, maybe I need new isolators. WI and MN are the worst roads I encountered on this trip. All those horizontal HIGH SPOTS across the highway really jarred me around.

I like this..."Not anymore! Professional's get paid!!" Working on that goal myself.

Did you try Sprecher's Czar Brew yet? It's that good!
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Sagehawk
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

tootal : what deck height or squish are you shooting for? I set evo road king up at .037 and .039 at 47000 miles. .005 copper base gaskets and s&s .045 head gaskets. heads were decked .040 at that time. I plan to open this up next round so more mileage can roll with a bit less compression. somewhere in mid .040 is my plan. let us know how that manifold fits in those heads and what gaskets you wind up with.
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Tootal
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My friend, Gary Duckworth of Duckworth Racing Engines, had these heads ported and shaved to his specs. I know they shaved them .030" and that's why my intake is a little tight. He told me to run a .036" head gasket. My compression with the 21G cams is 190. So I got some .040" gaskets to lower that a little as in hot weather I was having to retard it a lot to keep it from pinging. He's built so many Harley's I trust him completely as I've witnessed his work and his knowledge. Anybody that has built successful drag racing engines since the 60's has learned a few things!
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Tootal
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I lapped the head gasket surfaces with some 600 grit wet/dry on glass and they cleaned up nice. Cleaned all the threads, deburred and cleaned and blew dry with compressed air. Then I installed both heads and torqued them down. I put the James seals on the manifold and put it between the heads and it felt solid. There was no wiggle at all. I was able to get my camera at an angle to get a shot of the alignment.
Here's the front head:





And the rear:





Everything looks very promising. More to come tomorrow.
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Zac4mac
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Port match looks perfect!
Nice work Greg
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Zac4mac
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Guess I must be going in the right direction since Gary's porting looks very good to me.
Can't say that of very many examples I've seen lately.

Have a valve job now on a set of heads done by my predecessor at NRHS , Dan Norlin, who now works for Aaron Wilson at Hammer..
Guy said they make great power, so I get to compare...

I really don't mind the competition, I haven't seen an empty set of shelves since I started porting.
I'm still certain I am more particular about details than most of my ilk.
Recently started stamping a Z in the heads I work on.

Never had a problem with signing my work, unless an engineer wanted me to do something stupid.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

no wiggle at all? Hmmmmmmm!
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Never had a problem with signing my work, unless an engineer wanted me to do something stupid.

Amen!

Gary checked the flow on them and they were at 256 cfm at 1/2" lift. I remember telling him that it pulled like a freight train to 120 mph and then it hits a wall. He just laughed and said, "yep, you ran out of cam!"

What I meant by wiggle is that the manifold felt solid to the heads on both sides. Before, as you rotated up and down , you could feel it get solid on one side then the other.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just curious , Tootal!
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I got up early this morning and got it mostly back together. The manifold looks centered now where before it always wanted to shift to one side. I need to install the exhaust and hook up my test gas tank but it's after noon and I still haven't had breakfast so I quit for now. To be honest I'm nervous about testing it because if it leaks I don't know what else to do. Think I'll wait till tomorrow!
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Greg_e
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2017 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If it leaks, use lots of goo to seal it up.
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Tootal
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ha! I did use Hylomar on the seals. I just thought I'd let all the loctite harden. I just put the exhaust on and hooked up the gas tank but then realized I emptied my gas can into the mower so it's off for a gas run. This time I left the footboard off, the header shields off and the upper motor mount off. If it's still screwed up I didn't want to repeat taking all that back off again! I'm afraid to show any confidence in my repair because if I do, it will fail and then laugh at me!!!
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Greg_e
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I know that feeling!
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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well it failed anyway. I noticed the seals were squeezing out between the flanges and the manifold. In other words you couldn't see the machined part of the manifold as it was covered in rubber. The flanges are chromed ones and I think the diameter of the center is too large. I had some other flanges but they look like I bored them out at some point. Another vain attempt to fix it I'm sure. I ordered up some billet flanges from Dennis Kirk. Hopefully they are the correct dimensions.
I also noticed that the breather ports where the air cleaner bolts on are not in line. The dowels are a press fit in the cylinders but loose on the heads and when I tighten the heads they both twist clockwise a few thousands causing this. More sloppy tolerances...
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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Have you checked the height of the cylinders? Could one be higher than the other? Were the cases machined for the cylinders and could it have been done off center? Was the intake cut short to fit the lowered heads and now needs that shoulder cut back a little to clear the seal?
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Zac4mac
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Expect the breather holes to be all over the place.
I drilled and tapped my first pair a few weeks ago and the shop said they weren't aligned.
Stupid me drew lines to the 6 points around the pad to locate center.
Harley must grab the head in a jig and then cut/tap.
<edit>The worst part, the 3 lines converged at a point on both heads...

Chris said he checked all the heads at his shop and the holes were close to random...

(Message edited by zac4mac on July 30, 2017)
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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My original cylinders had porosity issues in the sleeve. I know, you've never heard of that either!
I found a pair of take offs at a swap meet. The guy had put a squaukin chicken 95" kit in his bike and had his old 88" cylinders. I had Gary bore and hone for 95". I did not check the height since they were a pair off the same bike. However, I did have a set of stock heads on these cylinders without any issues except a loss of power.
The cases are stock, never machined.
I just got done checking the manifold. I mounted it on the carb and bolted up the air cleaner. It was sitting crooked with a big gap to the rear cylinder. I loosened the rear air cleaner bolt until I had an equal gap. I then measured this and got a collection of washers until I got the right dimension. Now the gaps are even. I believe these aftermarket air cleaners with solid aluminum backing plates induce a problem since stock backing plates are plastic and can easily bend while still supporting the carb. That's how they get away with a lot of slop!
The gap is now even at .056". That's more than I thought. This manifold was cut down about .010" to fit before. The edges were also rounded for Oberon flanges, which didn't work. I think I'll order a new manifold considering that much gap.
If I could have thought ahead a little I would have made my own stepped dowel pins so they fit both holes snugly.
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Greg_e
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Something just came to me... You have some nice tools and obviously know how to use them... But you bought new alloy mounting flanges? With what you have I would think you could crank them out in a couple hours out of some scrap you have sitting around.
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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I actually have some flanges I made. I believe that's where Oberon got their idea as I put pictures of them on here and a little while later they are selling them. Mine didn't work. I had an idea to improve them by making them thicker and using 3 thin o=rings instead of just one thicker one. I retired before I got around to making them. Then in a moment of stupidity I threw away my fixture for making them! I just had so much crap in my drawers I just couldn't keep everything but that's one thing I wish I had kept! If worse comes to worse I might have to make a new fixture.



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Greg_e
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Could you simplify it to a one or maybe two constant radius curves and some straight lines? That way you could cut them on the mill with rotary table. Might need to get a tool to cut the O ring grooves but that could probably be done with a slitting saw or even the saw like bits for a dremel tool. On my mill the angle cut would suck but I think you mentioned that yours has an adjustable knee angle. I'd probably use a countersink angle cutter and just rotate the part on my table and hope for the best.
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Tootal
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 11:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The internal groove could be cut in the mill with a Woodruff key cutter on the rotary table. I just used an old flange for the outside dimensions and used a vertical band saw and a belt sander to shape them.

I still have the tool bit I ground to make the internal groove and using a lathe would be quicker if I didn't have to make a fixture to hold it.

I think time is the issue. I will have the flanges by Wednesday and it would take me several days to make anything. It is always an option though!
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Zac4mac
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Diving ball mill and a rotary table?
<edit> I mean, if it's for an o-ring, make a round slot...

I have 3 sets of flanges for port-matching intakes.
86 - 06 XL, Evo and TC88
07 - present XL
06+ TC

I add an ~.030 radius on the intake lip to help with minor mis-alignment.

(Message edited by zac4mac on July 31, 2017)
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