| Author | Message | ||
     Bob_thompson |
Datsaxman, "flat earth society" is a copout. I will agree I have no actual experience with CT's on any sportbike I have ever owned except a small amount with an MT flat slick on a drag Honda I ran. Very hard to turn off track when trying to get to the return road. I ask you again to explain why all mfgr's of bikes put MT's on their bikes. Just one intelligent answer please. What about liability questions? Money drives most mfgr's. (Message edited by Bob_thompson on December 20, 2012) (Message edited by Bob_thompson on December 20, 2012) | ||
| Glitch |
No insult intended, sorry if my sarcasm seemed so. | ||
| Kenm123t |
I suggest we contact a M/C tire company engineer and have him to explain the differences. | ||
| Datsaxman |
No, the Flat Earth Society is a real organization. Members sincerely believe that no "evidence" to the contrary is as good as their own intuitive, naive belief. Ignorance is bliss. Naive:= no information on the topic. Ignorance:= no information on the topic. (Before anybody gets their feelers hurt by my choice of terms) Glitch, come on down sometime and you can decide if I ride like an idjit or not. It sure looked like you were ready to presume that I can't ride. And that's fine. But that deserves a reply. Bob, You are asking me to provide an explanation for a negative. A logical error of sorts. Why don't I fall down and get hurt more often? (ummm...different reasons different days, right?) It is so much easier to explain why I fell down in a specific instance than explain why it usually does not happen. Why don't MC manufacturers puts CTs on their MCs? That is an easy one. Because there is no reason to. They don't install "better" oil, or batteries, or headlights, or taillights, or seats, or...tyres. They install good ones, even when there are better ones available. My Ulysses is better with HID lights, more and better taillights, synthetic oil, and maybe with that CT also. My Kawasaki is better with a Corbin seat, Shorai battery, HID headlight, LED taillights, synthetic oil, CAR oil filter (there is a nice machined adapter a guy makes for the Concours). And that CT makes it work a lot better. According to the owner. You know, the guy that pays for all that fancy stuff, and does all of the work on it, and then decides how it is all working out. Lasts longer, stickier rubber, tougher carcass. Notice that those are all objective, measurable characteristics! If somebody wants to say I can't ride because some of the MCs in my garage have a CT on them, that's says a lot about them and nothing about me. So go for it. MC manufacturers are middle of the road, compromising folks. Why don't more folks buy the V-Rod? Because it is not what they expect from HD. Even though, in most ways, it is a far superior HD. Not just a superior machine, a better Harley. MC manufacturers, despite some of the things our favorite manufacturer sometimes likes to do, do not make a lot of bold moves. Mostly they do what they have been doing. What the other guys are doing, except just a little different. Because it is safe. Because it sells. Because they can just trot out a new paint color and stamp out a bunch more just like it next year without too much trouble. A few risky decisions become instant classics, most are disasters. Remember the Suzuki Rotary? I was working at the dealer then. Great bike, actually. Market didn't think so. Katana? Same thing. A little too far out there for the times. Many more examples... As before, I am not entirely sold on the CT on the Buell. Boy, if I could find a 185/55R17 CT, that would be the ticket. Even with the CT on there now, I bet I can keep up with YOU on YOUR Ulysses with the MT on it. Own a business, Bob? I do. Innovation is expensive, risky business. Why even consider a CT? There is no reason for manufacturer to go there. They do not make tyres. Or oil. Or spark plugs. Or seals. So they use what everybody uses. There you go. Lots of intelligent stuff. Despite the "trap" question. And despite your poor example. A MT drag slick fits the "you would never expect this to work on your street bike" category from the earlier exchange. You try running the drag slick and I will run the CT and we can compare results if you like. Betcha the CT wins that one! But thanks for the chatter, the challenges, and all the comments. | ||
| Datsaxman |
Bump... | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Steven, this has been one of the most entertaining & interesting threads. If I ever get out your way, I'll be buying you a BIG drink, thank you. | ||
| Datsaxman |
Yes indeed, Mr. Grumpy. And thanks for the kind words. Still hoping to get a photo today of the rear CT for those who are interested. And more analytical testing and measuring is in the works as soon as weather allows. saxman | ||
| Datsaxman |
Got some CT fotos today...PM me for a copy. Corel is not cooperating with the resizing so I can't get them posted here. | ||
| Datsaxman |
Last post unless somebody wants to hear the latest... thanks for the (mostly) objective thread... | ||
| Aesquire |
I've been following this thread, but haven't had a constructive comment... But a few observations... An ex-friend put a car tire on his hard tail Honda 450 chopper. It was a planet sized bit better than the old, linoleum hard Continental MC tire. But that's a very unfair comparison, the old Conti was age checked, and the bike itself was best described as "rat". ( he'd bought it from some kid... a death trap. IMO ) With the old conti, it was like riding on ice, with the car tire? ( cheapest possible IIRC from his brother the tire salesman... ) I thought it was unstable in corners, but that was also true after I bought him a Chinese tire from JC Whitney. ( we were young and broke ) The car tire may have been a better choice, actually, but that wasn't, again, a fair comparison. I also recall the bad old days when the triangular Dunlops on the Triumphs were the hot setup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT100_(motorcycle_tyre) The concept was that you would ride on a narrow strip of rubber in a straight line, but as you leaned over the contact patch would increase, giving better traction, and superior handling. Now on a Bonneville, it worked great. As good as anything else on the road for the day, And was decent on my best buds' Norton Combat Commando. But his bike was a different critter, and worked best with the newer round profile tires. On a Kawa 500 triple, the triangular profile tires were scary... but I suspect the improved traction was over stressing the flexi-flyer frame. On my Suzuki GT380, the Dunlops were good, but when I went to the next tires, they were better... The trouble being that in every case I've ever personally experienced, the next generation of tires has been so much better that there is no comparison anymore. The tires that came stock on my 2001 bike would have beat ANY tires, including racing slicks in the 1980's, easy. And each bike has it's preferences, Sorry if this got posted earlier, but it popped up when I googled triangular tires... http://www.ridermagazine.com/browse-by-type/tires/ tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-moto rcycles.htm/ BTW, any suggestions on the next set for my Cyclone next year? Priorities are cold traction, wet traction, and dang good grip in corners. Mileage is secondary, but not completely irrelevant. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
BTW, any suggestions on the next set for my Cyclone next year? Priorities are cold traction, wet traction, and dang good grip in corners. My M2 is currently shod with Michelin PR3 on the front & PR2 on the back. I love the solid, totally planted feel of the PR3, it inspires total confidence in all weathers & makes me look a much better rider than I actually am. | ||
| Syonyk |
Priorities are cold traction, wet traction, and dang good grip in corners. Mileage is secondary, but not completely irrelevant. The Pilot Road 3s are excellent tires, though not "track day" levels of grip. More than enough for the street. They're great in the cold and amazing in the wet, though. I ride mine on ice more often than, perhaps, one should, and while not perfect, they grip ice better than motorcycle tires have any right to. | ||
| Sifo |
I've got PR2s on three bikes. I couldn't get the 3s when I needed tires last season so haven't tried them - yet. Good street tires. Predictable in the rain. When it's cold outside (below about 40), I do give them time to warm up though. I've noticed that they won't hold as well at those temps. I've gotten over 20K miles out of a couple sets. I've also swapped them out early at about 15K miles before a long trip. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
>>>I mean, you should have the Certified Technician at the Franchise Dealer install only OEM and Official Licensed parts. ROTFL and then  and then  To a couple stealerships out there. Great Thread though. - Where is the Fed Ex "this thread delivers" guy? And I try it if a good tire for doing came out. | ||
| Datsaxman |
Aesquire, Thanks for the Rider magazine post. The guy makes terrible analogies, and the tone of his article is typical of most such articles in the mainstream media. An article that contains NOT ONE BIT of fact that is germane to the question. One example: He thinks folks run car tyres on the front. Research FAIL. An article that was obviously written with a prejudicial agenda. One example: The hilarious analogy about brain surgery and poop doctors. A little subtle for some, but look for it. Like ALL of the so-called experts (the ones that I have read, anyway!) in the Anti-CT side of the debate, he is so smart he doesn't need to try it, not even one little bit, to know that it is like having brain surgery done by an intestine plumber. "I know all about this because some guy from Dunlop sent me an email..." Hilarious! I bet if you just looked at it from a safety standpoint, SEX would be advised against. Unsanitary, exposes delicate parts to injury, can lead to bruising and hair loss, leaves you particularly vulnerable to attack by zombies, etc. Of course, riding anything with two wheels would also be recommended against. Or lots of other stuff that turns out to be OK. // As always, I recommend that you should have the Certified Technician at the Franchise Dealer install only OEM and Official Licensed parts. // That's not *always* what I do. Actually, I get my Buell parts from American Sport Bike and put them on myself, so that is not **ever** what I do. But you are smart enough to NOT DO most of the stuff I do... | ||
| Luftkoph |
Aesquire thanks for the chill down my spine I too had the tt100 on an h1 when I was 16 what a. Evil handling hitch | ||
| Aesquire |
Thanks for the advice on my next tires. It'll be few months. Luftkoph, Didn't you love the frame/swingarm flex when the engine hit the powerband and flex the other way when you shifted... then back? ( in a heartbeat, defibbing... ) Datsaxman, I'n neutral to skeptical on this "darksiding" business. I don't think it's a good idea on my Cyclone, but on a touring bike? Perhaps. Violates all my prejudices, years of reading the tech articles in bike mags, and. of course, the Tire industry's ideas on what is right and proper. But as I, myself, say, the majority is not science. Everyone can agree on something that isn't, in fact, true. Not that long ago, the idea that rocks fall from the sky was absurd. now the argument is over if rocks that fall from the sky killed the dinosaurs. Or how concerned we should be about rocks falling from the sky will kill US. ( answer, very. Odds? 1. Cure? A space program with cheap orbital costs, and heavy industry in space. Colonies. Defense plans. ) What pressure do you run in the back? Stock pressure in the front, right? | ||
| Datsaxman |
// Odds? 1. // That comment alone labels you as a pretty smart guy in my book. So there we are with *constructive* and all that. Good example. I am reminded of the H2R that an employer had once upon a time. You know, the bike that Yvon DuHamel would use to either WIN or FALL OFF at most races back in the day. Much scarier than ANYTHING ELSE I ever rode. And the TT100/K81 was easily the BEST tyre of the era. At least I thought so back then. Coveted rubber for sure. Sifo...20,000 miles?? If I thought I could get half that I might pick up a pair. Recall: I went through THREE rears on the XB12XT in the first 10,800 miles. Stock Pirelli (4800 miles, that last 80 on the cords), Full Bore POS (2400 miles, changed with a tiny amount of rubber left in the center), Dunlop HD branded 404 or 402 or something like that (3600, changed when I was going to ride a thousand-miles-in-24-hours ride and didn't think it would last the distance). BTW, the Concours rear Austone is going on 23,500 miles and will gather up another 1500-2000 in the next couple of weeks. Pressure? I run 41-44psi in the rear these days, regardless of weather. Got a bunch of snow Thursday night before I left early Friday to ride 500 miles in intermittent rain. Yeah, 2" of snow and ice on the road, and actively hailing. Last thing I was worried about was the CT, really. Pressure in the front? You need to know what is going on there. I have a Bridgestone BT45 in 130/80-18. The so-called GoldWing size. Oversize for the Concours. But wait, there's more! It is a REAR fitment tyre, but mounted on the front. Why add to the madness, you ask? Deeper tread for longer wear. Before everybody jumps on the MONEY issue, NONE OF THIS is being done principally to save on the cost of tyres. This is a standard canard mouthed by CT naysayers, and (as always) yer welcome to your opinions. This is being done so I can GO a long way whenever I feel like it and not have to worry about getting stuck with a worn out tyre. This is being done because the heavier CT carcass protects against road hazards better. You know, multiple steel plies instead of one or two polyester or nylon plies. Do you want metal fabric or plastic between the junk on the road and the air in your tyre? I have made my choice. Same kind of trouble on the XB12XT. I have a 130/18-17 Metzeler 880 REAR on the front, about 35psi. Kinda big, but I like it. All black bodywork, flat black front fender, and that monster meat on the front. And then the CT on the rear, about 40psi. Rear fender/hugger thing had to come off to fit the CT. Both have just over 5000 miles on them and I haven't measured them for wear yet. LOTS of meat left at both ends. Opinion: I think folks often confuse the junk they read in MC magazines with real stuff. Example: handling. What makes for good handling? Typical magazine-type response: quick, light turning off center. Low effort at all times. These guys want everything to be a better racebike, and there is nothing wrong with that. My answer: Predictable response under extreme conditions. Ability to turn even when on the brakes hard. Ability to change direction, accelerate, or brake in turns without the bike doing random things due to the tyres squirming around. Predictable, linear behaviour in rain, snow, on ice, sand in a turn, at the limit, etc. I want everything to be a better bad weather touring bike. Anecdote: So there I was, on CA166 headed toward Maricopa from New Cuyama or Old Cuyama or wherever. Buell is loaded up with bags, gear, extra gas tank, and my big butt. I am racing a deadline, and the road is clear, nearly deserted, and clean. We are hauling the mail something fierce. I have the suspension set up for two-up riding, so a little too stiff for solo work. Whatever. I am in a hurry, right? SO I hook into this extra-fast corner at the bottom of a bowl, great sight lines, and we are flat out. Using both lanes, off the seat pretty far, 6000+rpm in top. It occurs to me halfway through this misadventure that I am out in the middle of BFE, off the planned route, and I could just vanish off the edge of the road and not be found for a long time. This occurs to me because we are in the midst of a lurid, endless sliding motion. I mean, when it seems like a good time to back off a little and behave, I am so far into the corner, and the beast is sliding so much, that there is nothing to do except hold on. Just after the bottom of the bowl, I hit a series of ripples. Exciting? Yeah. Scared? Maybe later, too busy right then. Felt like I was riding through a berm on a dirt bike, it was stepping out so much. And the Buell was as calm and composed as can be. You know, with that big Metz and that CT. THAT is good handling. A touring rig with touring tyres that you can ride right to the limit without bad things happening. You want really low effort? Good for you. Get a Burgman or a Ninja 300. Folks like what they like, and so should you. I like not having to look at the tyre every week wondering if it is going to fail today. I like lots of traction. I give up that light steering effort everybody likes so much. And not much more than that. YMMV, and of course, you know what I say about only using OEM equipment approved, provided, and installed by a certified agent of the manufacturer! | ||
| Sifo |
Sifo...20,000 miles?? If I thought I could get half that I might pick up a pair. I've gotten between 15K and 20K on every set so far. The ones changed at 15K still had a good deal of wear left, but we were off on a trip that was planned to be 4-5K miles and didn't want to get caught short with the tires. For a reference point, the original Dunlop on my XB was used up in about 3.5K. The front actually lasted just past 4K simply because I couldn't get a replacement. I stopped riding it for about a week when it was wanting to go into a wobble due to the front being worn so bad. | ||
| Aesquire |
Handling... It's like the Top Gear ( Brit ) Captain Slow says, total dedication to race track use makes for a crappy ride in the real world. Shortly after I got my Cyclone, I, with some trepidation, let a good buddy try it. He's a very experienced rider, better than I am, with years of racing experience. After asking him not to pull wheelies, and warning him to try the brake before he goes any where, off he goes. 45 minutes later he returns, hands me the keys and tells me never, ever, no matter how much he begs, let him ride the Buell again. Turns out he was going down his favorite mountain road, on a stretch he KNOWS is safe in the 70-75 range on a well set up bike. Thinks to himself, "this is nice, a bit slow, what am I doing? 60?" then looks down and sees 90+ on the speedo. He claims the bike kept talking to him, asking if that's all he got, why is he so slow, lets Go!, Come On!..........  | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Oh shutup, it's bloody snowing here again! & my M2 is in the basement.  | ||
| Datsaxman |
Well, its bloody snowing here too. Rode to the Buell Club meeting last night in the heavy fog and intermittent rain. Rode home in thicker fog. Going to work a bicycle race in the rain tomorrow. First I will have to get out and down the mountain. Snowing on and off since before dawn toad - 3:00pm now - and scheduled to continue all night. So, you know, I am RIDING IN IT. You?? | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Not today, I was at the Geneva motor show this morning with the kids & now I'm in a hotel in Amsterdam. Going to work tomorrow, hauling show stuff down to Istanbul. Been on the piss with some old mates yacking about old times & old friends, good times. | ||
| Datsaxman |
Confession: There was a foot of the whyte shyte in the drive when I popped up yesterday in the wee hours. Shoveled it clean, got a shower and did the last of the packing. When out to put all the gear in the Buell, and there was another 2" of the evil stuff already. So I bailed out and put the gear in the VAN, with the VFR750 already packed in it for a "rainy" day. Good thing, too. There was a lot of snow and ice for 8-10 miles down the road on the way down the mountain. But I DID get to ride in the rain for hours yesterday. Much of it up and down a rough, tilted dirt road. But no snow this weekend for the Buell! } | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
"Discretion is the better part of valour." As the saying goes. No sense in taking unnecessary risks just to prove that you can. Sounds like you did the sensible thing (relatively speaking  ) | ||
| Nillaice |
i'm posting in this thread because it seems to be one of the biggest (although it has a lot of bickering) threads on the topic and is recent. I didn't have any experience to speak on this topic, but i'm getting some. the CT turn-in and leaning is taking a bit of getting used to. it's worse than a Shinko, but not unrideable. so i'll keep it on at least for the typical mileage of a MT I tried to get it on the rim and gave up after 30 min of me and a buddy wrestling with the second bead on the floor of his garage. so I took it to a shop for $20 and it took three of their guys with a tire machine to get it on. I've mounted a few sets of MC tyres before, but i sure as heck wasn't gonna make it happen with just my set of tire spoons. it's a yokohama S Drive 205/45/17 and it's got a short, and stiff sidewall. the Pirelli scorpion felt as flimsy as a sheet of paper by comparison. this CT is a TIGHT fit, but looks good and PERFECTLY fits the shape of the mudguard on my uly ... coincidence?  maybe the left sidewall had no issues, but the right side was rubbing against the inner metal belt guard. I could still roll the wheel by hand, but it was definitely making contact and dragging. I took off the metal guard, but decided to make the tire fir the bike instead of making the bike fit the tire and put it back on. so with a belt sander; I removed some of the lettering right at the edge of the tread to get clearance. just the embossed lettering was rubbing, not the actual tire caracas or sidewall. the speedo is off by 4 MPH compared to my phone. the bike indicates 60 at 56 as read on the phone. like I said its right close to the mudguard so it might be that I didn't check the speedo before. anybody with experience on this please feel free to chime in with what worked best for you. i'm trying to find the best # to run it. I installed it at 40# and it felt wallow-y (is that a word?) straight up and then it takes effort to lean it and i could feel it pop up on to the sidewall I pumped it up to 50# and its much better but I think I might have over-did it. | ||
| Buelet |
Just came across thread and after reading through it, I'm intrigued. The wife & I are headed to AK this summer for 24 days and around 9k miles that she's mapped out so far. We're each riding our Ulys. Her on her '09 XT and me on my '06 X. I run my tires to the cords and am struggling with the idea of a planned tire change at some point, whether the tire is worn out or not. I've been thinking that I'd just put on fresh PR3s when the time comes, but I've never had a rear tire of any brand last that long... I've got a 009 Raven on mine currently, but don't enough miles on it to know how long it'll last yet. I'm intrigued with the CT idea, if for nothing else than this trip. As far as handling is concerned... I'm sure it'll feel different, but every tire does. To me it doesn't matter. I just adapt to whatever it feels like. I'd love to see some pictures! | ||
| Nillaice |
Mileage report this 205/45r17 Yokohama s drive was completely worn out. Even the wear bars were worn down to the skin, and even tread wear across the flat carcass, with some feathering on the edge tread blocks. I got it as a used tire, Did the coast to coast run, some sported-touring once I got to Oregon, and some more commuting. I put it on at ~25k mi, 44380 on the clock tonight. But first gear was noticeably lower and the speedo read like 6mph under at 60, so let's call it 15k actual miles ... on a used tire. This week I've been testing the patience of my local tire guy with getting it replaced. First He mounted a BF Goodrich GForce sport, but the sidewall curved out past the tread block every other BF Goodrich he pulled had the same sidewall profile. He ordered me a 205/50r17 Goodyear assurance. looked like a nice, meaty tire and like it might could clear the belt, but it was definetly past the lip of the pulley and I thought the Yokohama would clear better Cuz the last one was a yoko. So today I got a 205/50R17 yoko and it seemed like it wouldn't fit, but it slides in like one of those cheap knock-off Legos that was just a little wider than a genuine Lego block. It seems like it fits but it's rubbing against the belt guard, ... but it'll fit  (Message edited by Nillaice on July 11, 2017) | ||
| Nillaice |
And I just realized I didn't balance it | ||
| Froggy |
Thank you for the update, I'll probably be doing similar on my Uly soon. |
