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Archive through December 07, 2016Torquehd30 12-07-16  10:28 pm
Archive through December 06, 2016Torquehd30 12-06-16  01:15 am
Archive through December 01, 2016Blake30 12-01-16  01:50 pm
Archive through November 30, 2016Blake30 11-30-16  08:37 pm
Archive through November 29, 2016Aesquire30 11-29-16  11:00 pm
         

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Blake
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 02:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Isn't there a big difference between actually violating laws of logic versus creating hallucination or transcending expectation? Aren't you presenting the latter?

I didn't come up with this on my own, it comes from some highly respected philosophers and theologians.

God cannot violate His own perfectly good nature. If He could, then he wouldn't be perfectly good, and would thus be unworthy of worship. He wouldn't be God, the greatest possible being.

One of the best illustrations of this kind of issue is Euthyphro's Dilemma:

Do you know it?
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 02:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Socratese asked:

Does God will something because it is good, or is something good because God wills it?

What say you?

Either way, the answer is problematic theologically.

In the first case, what is good exists independently from God, which means morality could not be based in God, which implies that God Himself answers to a higher authority.

In the second case, what is good or evil becomes arbitrary, just corresponding to whatever God wills.
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Crusty
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 04:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What is the Meaning of Life?

Ask Mr. Creosote.
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Arbalest
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't discount the existence of a creator. If one accepts the notion of a "Big Bang", then who or what lit the fuse on that firecracker? The universe is huge beyond imagining. We live on a little rock in the backwater of a second rate galaxy. In the big picture, the amount of protoplasm that represents the human race on Earth is less than insignificant by many orders of magnitude. To think that the creator of the universe has ANY interest on what pieces of protoplasm are putting what soft parts into what other pieces of protoplasm, or even what the term marriage means, I think, is the absolute height of arrogance. Do you really think the creator will sentence you to an eternity in hell for getting the hots for your neighbor's wife? The creator has enough on its mind just keeping track of which way is "up" and making sure gravity pulls everything "down" everywhere in the universe.
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

In "the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy" orbiting "a small unregarded yellow sun".
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"The creator has enough on its mind just keeping track of which way is "up" and making sure gravity pulls everything "down" everywhere in the universe."

These things don't burden the mind of God in the slightest bit. Plenty of cycles left over to care about you.
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Torquehd
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake, the bible doesn't say that people saw things that didn't happen. Jesus REALLY brought people back to life, Aaron's staff REALLY changed from wood into a living breathing eating snake. Jesus REALLY created bread and fish by duplicating matter that already existed - that wasn't a hallucination or simple misplaced expectation. Changing the laws of physics is imperative to miracles. If a miracle can be explained by natural means, and fits in with the laws of nature, it's not a miracle but a deception.

As for mr Socrates, Yes, if God wills it, it is good, and that is not somehow independent from Him - he creates good and evil. He doesn't borrow them from somewhere, I don't understand that side of the arguement, but then again, the argument is proposed by a humanist so I should not be surprised that his Theological philosophy approaches the subject from an angle tangent to truth. If he wills it because it's good for my soul, then that's good. If it's good because he wills it, then it's good. This clay pot is not going to ask the potter why he made me thus. I don't get to judge God's intentions, whether they be good or evil. If he says it, the correct response is, "Roger that!"
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Torquehd
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There's that verse, "This is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us first".

God is the source, not a third party. God is the engineer that designed not only the motorcycle, but also the tools that he uses to build the motorcycle (and the materials that the motorcycle is made out of, and the laws that keep the motorcycle upright when you spin the crank and tires. And the laws that dictate that man's sorrow must be turned to joy when you grab a handful of throttle!).
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That implies that God designed the seat on the S1. I believe in a living, loving, compassionate God, so I'm having a hard time accepting that.
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Torquehd
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hoot, to everything under the sun there is a season. A time to kill, a time to heal, a time to ride a hardtail, and a time to have the local seat upholsterer custom make you a plush new saddle.
Fortunately the hardtail thing only lasted 20 or 30 minutes!
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jesse,

Miracles do not defy the laws of logic.

Neither does God.

You're onto the correct answer to the Euthyphro's Dilemma. The answer is neither choice offered is correct. It's a false dichotomy. The correct answer is that God Himself is the good.

Arbalest,
God cares, not as the judgemental nanny that you seem to imagine, but as the God who cared so much that he lowered Himself to dwell as us and among us, and to suffer humiliation, torture, and death on our behalf. There's this collection of books. They're all about the relationship between our creator and humanity. You should read some. : )

(Message edited by Blake on December 08, 2016)
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Torquehd
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Miracles do not defy the laws of logic.

Perhaps I do not understand your statement. When you say logic, I'm thinking, robot logic or computer logic. If x+y=n, then z. If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but Jesus made fish and bread out of nothing, then not z. If objects more dense than water cannot float, but God made a presumeably metal axehead sink and then float, then not z. If a living organism cannot be reanimated by simply speaking a word, then not z. Not logic, not within the bounds of physical laws as we understand them. I've presented scripture evidence as to why I believe that God can defy logic (and I believe that the ability to defy logic is a necessity for a being to be God).
Can you expound on WHY you say that miracles (or better yet, God) do/does not defy logic?

(Message edited by torquehd on December 08, 2016)
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Aesquire
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


proof
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Reading through your comments about the universe being finite or infinite, I thought the science leaned towards an ever expanding universe? A universe that is expanding faster than the speed of light, no less.
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Aesquire
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

I figure our definition of infinite is incomplete and not worry about it too much. If I was actively doing astrophysics, it would be a concern, but right now my ambitions are at a lower altitude. Get back on the bicycle, back on the bike & get back to soaring.

( In a perfect World, I'm applying the VW refund to garage building, and will build or buy a motorglider after... unless I find an awesome deal on Barnstormers. I don't want to build another flying machine in a basement.... been there, swore at & hoisted that. )

The speed of light and/or the nature of gravity may be variable...... It's a question of complication beyond theory.

The classic "2 body problem" is "if you have 2 and only 2 masses in the universe, can you predict their movement based on position and vector?" The answer is yep.

The "3 body problem"... same deal with 3 masses, has a couple of stable solutions ( Lagrange points ) but is otherworldly insoluble.

Of course, that's a massive oversimplification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem

Now we hit the N-body problem... calculating the trajectories with many masses. You can do a convergent repetitive approximation..... hope you are quick with an abacus.

Now, shooting a rifle or a cannon, on Earth, you can mostly use 2 body easy assumptions. With spinning objects. ( luckily built into the long range shooting phone apps ) The pull of the Sun & Moon aren't going to matter much at the relatively close ranges most rifles and cannon work at.

Start throwing stuff to the other side of the planet, or beyond, and the math gets hard.... Here to Saturn? harder.

But obviously do-able enough for practical work.

Go past Pluto, out where the tug of nearby stars and galactic spin start to kick in?

Good damn question. We don't have experimental data.. yet.

Now that the first of our space probes is leaving the local area, we may see that many of our assumptions are wrong, or prove them...... until we hit the next level of complexity.... ( FTL? pellet drive interstellar probes? )

The science is never settled. Don't expect to prove spiritual matter with math.

But golly it sure looks like there's more to it than random. Darn pretty anyway.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap161202.html
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Torquehd
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Seriously, of all the glorious images on APOD, you pick an omelet?









I really wish I could see beyond the normal ROYGBIV spectrum.
And I wish I was a phenomenal painter and could cover the entire interior of my house with images like these.
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Blake
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jesse,

I see the confusion. I'm not talking about digital "logic" coding, or the laws of science, though re science, that case too may be made, but I digress. I'm referring specifically to the formal logical laws of philosophical argument. The law of non-contradiction for example.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_logic

Also, be careful not to assume what is not reported in the Bible. For instance, the fish and bread came from nothing?

A miracle is anything that defies explanation. Our inability to understand or explain how doesn't mean God uses magic to achieve miracles. Magic is for fairy tales. God ain't about magic. transcending space and time, omniscience, and omnipotence are enough.

If Logic does not accord with the mind of God, well, at a minimum Christian theology would be destroyed.

And FYI, even science recognizes that matter can be created and destroyed. When proton meets anti-proton for instance.

(Message edited by Blake on December 09, 2016)
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Hootowl
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This bears repeating, given the drift into logic and God.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED"

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

~Douglas Adams
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Torquehd
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake that's news to me, I learned that matter cannot be created or destroyed in junior high and high school. I never went to college so I'm sure there's a whole lot about even basic science that I don't know or misunderstand.

The bible seems to draw a polar distinction between miracles and magic. Miracles are the work of God, magic is supernatural work without God (summoning familiar spirits etc).
Seems like neither happens much anymore. I mean I've read about them in the bible but never seen either.

I think I understand your opinion of God, and I don't think either of us will change our opinions. I still think God can count to infinity, and dip his paintbrush in light and gravity and paint emotion across the infinite sky. Or finite, who knows.
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Torquehd
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 07:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

CHECK THIS OUT (from APOD)!!!



You couldn't photoshop a picture this awesome!
THAT is the kind of stuff my God does!
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2016 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I learned that matter cannot be created or destroyed in junior high and high school

“Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.” Einstein
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 01:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jesse,

If you ever get into serious Christian Theology and Philosophical analysis, you'll likely find even more profoundly wondrous perspectives on God.
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 01:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FVB,

With the clarification that mass is just another form of energy.
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