| Author | Message | ||
     Adrenaline_junkie |
I'm guessing between him and Wandell..... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Wonder if these changer were able to be made because the "stylist" Willie Davidson retired. Perhaps he was the one keeping HD out of the 21st century? Willie G kind of reminds me of Admiral Rickover, the "father" of the nuclear Navy. Both did a lot to move their organizations into the future early in their careers, but once they got the organizations there, they didn't want to change ANYTHING ever. The thing that really cemented my opinion of Willie G was when the rubber mount Sportster came out and they told how it had the new crankshaft trigger ignition system, but Willie insisted that they keep the "points cover" on the cam cover because that's what their riders expected to see. Hell, that's not even "historical", a lot of us remember when the points were in a separate vertical housing off the top of the cam cover, and before that, there was a magneto/distributor off the top of the cam cover. | ||
| Tootal |
I think Victory and Indian are finally making them nervous! They had to play catch up and still have a ways to go. I know there's a big government watch looking at all the Screaming Eagle performance software products. Harley's in a bit of trouble and people are buying up the 2016's because the 2017's are rumored to be "untunable' by any means. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Still waiting for those clowns to put a vrod engine in anything I would actually ride. Same goes for Indian's scout. I love the way it looks but come on, put the feet where the feet go! | ||
| Blake |
I still despise H-D for how they treated Buell; I literally can't stomach the thought of owning a Harley, but some of the assumptions and comments being made here fail the tests of reason and logic. Roller bearings offer some advantages over journal bearings, efficiency and zero wear at startup are two. The existing oil pump is constant volume; the pressure is relatively low, because the resistance to flow is low. Plug the oil lines and that oil pump will burst them like nothing. Air cooling, especially for a V-twin or opposed twin or a single cylinder engine has major advantages over water cooled cylinders. See, air cooling can never fail. Think about it. The efficiency of radiative heat shedding increases exponentially as engine temperature rises. If it is designed well and supplied with good quality synthetic lubricant, an air-cooled engine literally defies over-heating, while a water cooled version is puking it's guts out. Air cooling is also a lot simpler with a lot less to go wrong. There are limitations for air cooling, mainly the ability to support very high performance and to dampen noise. Those so far are not big issues for Harley beyond the VRod. A two piece crank is likewise perfectly fine if well-designed. That's the big caveat, being well-designed, but it applies to every engine configuration and every engine feature. It's not the configuration or design features, it's the execution of the design that is either high quality or not. The older designs were better? Huh? The one with air-cooling, two-piece cranks, and roller bearings you mean? Maybe were more durable, but I doubt it, and at what HP? Seriously, let's be rational. | ||
| Snacktoast |
2017's are rumored to be "untunable' by any means. And that's a garbage rumor, because it is 100% untrue. | ||
| Snacktoast |
Maybe were more durable, but I doubt it, and at what HP? Good point. Stock evos made what, 55hp? Stock 88" twin cam, 62 hp? Stock 96" twin cam 68 hp? Everyone wants more power, better fuel economy, wants to maintain the traditional design and look, and doesn't want to pay more for it. Hmmmm, something's gotta give, right? | ||
| Sifo |
As Blake pointed out, the oil pump will produce pressure if oil flow is restricted. Babbitt bearings restrict oil flow by having tight clearances. Roller bearings don't have any restrictions. You wouldn't want to restrict the oil flow to a roller bearing either. They need volume, not pressure to work. HD's oil pumps do exactly what they are designed to do just fine. The 4 valve head thing doesn't really make much sense for a long stroke engine that isn't designed for high RPM. It tends to hurt the bottom end power too. It makes sense for the engines that HD produces to use 2 valve heads. I understand the despise for HD around here. I feel it too. I'm also not a big fan of the bikes that HD build, but they do what they are designed to do fairly well. Like most motor companies, they have had some screw ups along the way. To argue that nothing changes with HD tech is to ignore reality though. | ||
| Strokizator |
The 4 valve head thing doesn't really make much sense for a long stroke engine that isn't designed for high RPM. It tends to hurt the bottom end power too. It makes sense for the engines that HD produces to use 2 valve heads. According to the article, a 4-valve head can be made to run cooler than a 2-valve. I think in HD's case it was more about heat management than better breathing or lighter valve train allowing higher rpm. Now if someone can explain why there are 24 valves on my Cummins diesel that rarely exceeds 3000 rpm. | ||
| Torquehd |
If it ain't a 12 valve it aint a cummins. If it aint a shovel it aint a Harley. Just kidding. But i used to work with folks who (probably still) feel that way. About both products. | ||
| Sifo |
Diesel is a bit of a different animal. In a diesel, you don't need to keep the air moving to atomize the fuel as it's coming into the cylinder. The diesel injects it's fuel directly into the combustion chamber during the combustion stroke. If HD did it to run cooler, that may make some sense. I wonder how it has affected the power curve, especially at lower throttle settings. Honestly though, I don't really care much beyond the technical aspect. Moto Guzzi took some models from 2 valve heads to 4 valve units. No question that they make more power. Many said they preferred the older 2 valve head engines though. Same with the Ducati Monsters. I understand the desire for just a bit more power in all kinds of things. To be honest though, I get a kick out of my XB12 with it's low end torque that is just brutal for the total amount of power it puts out. It's just easy and fun to ride. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I wondered about that 4 valve change also when I heard it. For a long stroke already RPM limited motor with large heads, I didn't think 4 valves would buy you much beyond additional complexity. Heat management is the most rational explanation I have heard. | ||
| Dwardo |
Just as an armchair engineer, I see advantages to 4-valve heads on a long stroke engine. The correspondingly smaller cylinder bore leaves less room for valves than a very oversquare engine and you can put more valve area in the same cylinder with four. | ||
| Snacktoast |
Going to 4 valve heads also affords them the ability to run less valve spring pressure since one can only assume that the valves weight less. So, it should, in theory, be easier on the valve train. | ||
| Sifo |
Just as an armchair engineer, I see advantages to 4-valve heads on a long stroke engine. The correspondingly smaller cylinder bore leaves less room for valves than a very oversquare engine and you can put more valve area in the same cylinder with four. True, but of little consequence at the RPMs that a big twin runs at. Going to 4 valve heads also affords them the ability to run less valve spring pressure since one can only assume that the valves weight less. So, it should, in theory, be easier on the valve train. I doubt that's true when you have a single pushrod operating a double rockerarm and both valves. I would be willing to bet that the pushrods get stressed even more. | ||
| Snacktoast |
I doubt that's true when you have a single pushrod operating a double rockerarm and both valves. I would be willing to bet that the pushrods get stressed even more. You can doubt it, that's fine. The seat pressure in these heads is significantly less than in the twin cam, and they're running less lift due to the increased flow of the 4-valve setup. It's going to be easier on the valve train. | ||
| 86129squids |
Wow- I'm remembering... TSCC YICS Don't remember any Honda acronyms, or Kaw either. I do remember my '87 FZ700 with Genesis 5-valve heads, LOVED that bike. Sold it to a soldier returning from the first Gulf war turdbucket, hope he got to ride that thing well and enjoy it, hope he's still riding today. Might have to catch up with my peeps at SMHD, out of curiosity. | ||
| Torquehd |
They should run a hybrid desmodromic/pushrod setup so they can cram in 8 pushrods per jug, just to make it really fun to ponder. | ||
| Tootal |
So after all these "improvements" did they fix the compensator nut yet? | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I recently test rode a couple of new 2016 Harley's at McHenry Harley Davidson. First I rode the Roadster. It was ok but nothing special. Then I rode the Low Rider and really liked that a lot better! I'm actually getting to the age where my better motorcycle days are behind me so I doubt if I will ever get another one. Actually I have thought about a small motor scooter for local riding. Something simple and easy to ride! Besides I'm starting to get tired of pushing my Ulysses home!😱 | ||
| 86129squids |
WTF- why are you pushing home your Uly?!?!? Entropy exists for all things, but before it gets me, I'm looking for an XB12XT, STT, or any of the 2nd gen framed XB bikes with Cherry Bomb plastics. | ||
| Phelan |
The 4 valve motors have amazing off-idle torque compared to the 2 valve motors. They have about 90% of their peak torque at 1200 RPM. They designed the 4 valve motors to be a modest performance bump while gaining a lot of headway for future models. Keep in mind this motor was also designed to fit in the exiating Touring frames with existing style intake and exhaust ports. Down the road, if they choose to remake the intake and exhaust ports the way Feuling did, they will see significant power increases just from that. | ||
| Tootal |
Quite a while ago I did see where somebody turned the front head around and had two intakes from the right and two exhaust on the left. The air flowed from front to rear. It was a custom chopper if I remember correctly but a neat idea IMO. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I still can't comprehend why they haven't put the Vrod engine in something worthwhile. You could so easily jam one in a big touring bike. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Quite a while ago I did see where somebody turned the front head around and had two intakes from the right and two exhaust on the left. The air flowed from front to rear. It was a custom chopper if I remember correctly but a neat idea IMO. I've seen at least a couple of Sportsters with 2 front heads, which is basically what the XR750 and XR1000 had. One of the Sportsters was cafe'ed and was called "the Poor Man's Vincent". | ||
| Ratbuell |
The Revolution motor isn't in a bagger because the "purists" (customers and board members alike) don't want it there. The people who would want it there ride 'wings, and BMWs, and Buells. And those folks don't shop at HD showrooms. | ||
| Tootal |
Hugh, I did see the Poor Man's Vincent, I forgot about that one. That's similar to what I was talking about. I actually thought it looked good! The revolution motor is a pain to work on. Valve adjustments require removal of the cams because it's shim under bucket design. I watched an old Harley mechanic doing a valve adjustment and cussing Harley for doing their valves like that. The frame of the V-rod wasn't helping with the job either. Personally I wouldn't want a V-rod engine in my Harley. If they would go with forged, balanced and trued cranks, gear drive cams and go back to the old style crank bearings and the old style compensator nut they would really have a nice engine. I took a tour of Harley in 1988. Even then they admitted that they took ten cranks off the line and balanced each of them. Then they took an average of where and how much they drilled them and made them all the same. You might get lucky and get one close to balanced or not. I bought a 1989 Softtail and it vibrated so bad the floor board vibrated off, the chrome belt cover cracked in half. My friend with a 1988 softtail rode mine and called it a POS! His was smooth compared to mine! After 2 years I sold it and bought a rubber mounted model. My point is that Harley has been trimming cost for a long time. They aren't as bad as the old AMF bikes but they could be so much better. | ||
| Strokizator |
Harley is trimming costs even more. They just announced they will be laying off 200 workers due to lower world wide demand (off 5%). | ||
| Steveford |
Market share for heavy weights fell to below 50%. http://fortune.com/2016/09/01/harley-davidson-layo ffs/ | ||
| Court |
Interesting how the call them "Harley motorcycles" in one place and "Davidson motorcycles" in others |
