| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Sure enough . . . . months ago . . folks were questioning if Harley-Davidson had falsified fuel records. http://www.harley-davidson-hangout.com/showthread. php?121723-I-wonder-if-Harleys-have-an-emissions-c heat-like-VWs Expect, within the next 24 hours, to hear the feds asking the same question. . . . . hmmmmm | ||
| Teeps |
Would not be a surprise. If a loop hole in the test is found, you can bet it gets exploited... until someone complains. All sorts of tricks are employed to pass government regulations. Some subtle, like a funky gear ratio in a m/t, others are insidious (aka vw's cheat.) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Interesting problem space. If they design a test you have to pass, and you pass it, what quantifies "cheating"? Especially if they didn't define it? I have the same problem in the information security field. I get these clueless mountians of prescriptive requirements, that cost me 5 times our budget to meet. But they are usually a poor fit for the purpose they are being used, so they by no means reliably reduce all risk. So after jumping through ever hoop, I then have to do another excercise that actually considers real risk. That's hard, and even harder when the hoop jumping already put you 5x over budget. Especially if much of the rest of the industry doesn't jump through the hoops OR be serious about risk reduction... | ||
| Teeps |
Reepicheep Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - Interesting problem space. If they design a test you have to pass, and you pass it, what quantifies "cheating"? Especially if they didn't define it? Agree Reep. It's more a violation of the "spirit" of the rules. | ||
| Tootal |
My old BMW has a switch on the throttle linkage. It knows when it's at idle, off idle and full throttle. When it reads full throttle it says SCREW the EPA! Test are not done at full throttle, thank goodness! When getting emission testing they would sometimes hit full throttle and I'd flunk the test so I put a spacer on the linkage to keep it from hitting full throttle and then I'd get the fast pass. Since most driving is in the test zone I don't see anything wrong with that. When you need to accelerate to avoid a collision I'm glad the EPA is not in control! | ||
| Reepicheep |
My first thought on the Volkswagen settlement was "I want one of those cars if they get cheap, but only if they haven't fixed the emissions to be legal (thereby ruining the performance and fuel economy)". | ||
| Arcticktm |
In the 90's the heavy duty diesel guys (one of which I worked for at the time) were accused of the same type of cheating as VW by the EPA. The defense was that were meeting the cycle emissions (which was true, at least for the company I worked for). Spirit of the law is a trickier subject of course. EPA said these were "defeat devices" because they provided different emissions when not on cycle. The big diesel guys settled before going to court, for a paltry fine (by VW standards) and agreeing to tougher emissions laws sooner (the series of tougher laws up to 2010). EPA also changed the rules to include a "Not to Exceed" value, so you cannot exceed a certain emissions value under any possible running condition. I was amazed last year when the VW scandal broke, to realize that the guys in Wolfsburg were either ignorant of history, or just thought they were smarter than everyone else. Clearly they were smarter than the government, but not the university researchers... | ||
| Damnut |
Here ya go....... 12 million http://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/2016/ 08/18/harley-davidson-fined-12-million-epa/8894599 4/ | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Well the volkeswagneers got away with it for a while.... Perhaps that's all it took to retire with a bonus before anyone found out? | ||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder if they will go after "Race Use Only" ECM's as well? | ||
| Teeps |
Hughlysses Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - I wonder if they will go after "Race Use Only" ECM's as well? Not sure what you mean Hugh, as race only ecms, are now and have always been illegal for highway use. CA, does not have a smog check for bikes, yet. But if there was; a bike with a race only ecm (as marked on the ecm) would fail the visual inspection. Before the bike's exhaust emissions was ever tested, regardless if the sniff test would pass. | ||
| Airbozo |
It appears that this is directly related to the race only ECU's... (even though we know they are being used on road...) ""This settlement is not an admission of liability but instead represents a good-faith compromise with the EPA on areas of law we interpret differently, particularly EPA's assertion that it is illegal for anyone to modify a certified vehicle even if it will be used solely for off-road/closed-course competition," Ed Moreland, Harley-Davidson's government affairs director, said in a statement. " http://www.businessinsider.com/us-government-sues- harley-davidson-over-emission-control-defeat-devic e-2016-8 | ||
| Aesquire |
I currently own an affected VW TDI. It's being recalled and they will pay me for it..... but I will miss the torque & mileage. Worst is I can't brag how green I am & honestly "40 times the legal limit" is cleaner than any rational standard. No smoke or soot. | ||
| Damnut |
I wouldn't give it back but 20K for it is a really good offer. | ||
| Snacktoast |
For those of you unfamiliar with the product in question, the Super Tuner was a link type tuning device that was explicitly marketed for closed course competition use only. It allowed, through the use of software, the ability to modify fuel and spark tables in the ECM. This is where the water gets muddy, in my opinion. The EPA interprets the law (which they may have written??) to state that the modification of any emissions control system on a street licensed vehicle may not be tampered with. Period. Whereas, for years, the aftermarket world has been developing products for off road use to do exactly this. And various OEMs have been offering the purchase of off-road use only parts during this time as well. This is likely a case of them going after one of the biggest players in the game. But what about Bazzaz, Dynojet, TTS, Direct Link, just to name a few...are they next? Think back to very recently where there was a petition circulating where signatures were requested to prevent the EPA from banning non-race use vehicles from being converted into race use vehicles. | ||
| 1313 |
But what about Bazzaz, Dynojet, TTS, Direct Link, just to name a few...are they next? Well, Dynojet was one of - if not THE - first: DynoJet Fined by California (CARB) for PowerCommander CARB Sues Dynojet over Power Commander. C.A.R.B. attacks the Power Commander Box in Calif! FWIW, 1313 | ||
| Snacktoast |
Yup, I remember that situation with CARB. But you can still buy a Power Commander in 49 of the 50 US states that has identical functionality of the Super Tuner. | ||
| Buelliedan |
It's only going to get worse for performance mods if Hillary is voted in. The EPA has learned from watching CARB just how much money they can make by imposing fines on so called "violators" (Message edited by buelliedan on August 19, 2016) | ||
| Aesquire |
I wouldn't give it back but 20K for it is a really good offer. Honestly, I've been torn. The deal for mine is only 14K plus the previous, months ago, $500 cash & $500 service coupon. The price is tied to the blue book value the day before they admitted cheating. OR They can fix it for free. Plus some more coupons... or checks... don't know the fine print. So, theoretically I have to chose to fix my SportWagen or sell it back. First there's a bit of uncertainty. I've been told the rumor mill says my year, 2009, can't actually be fixed. The 2010+ 2.0L TDI just needs a software patch that the rumor mill says costs less than 10% on power and/or mileage. That rumor may change. I may not have a decision to make... But I'm waiting for all the paperwork. So, the Pro's for keeping my Sportwagen are. I really like the car. Handling is as good as any car under a bajillion dollars that doesn't have magnetic ride. Solid chassis, no flex at the edge of tire grip, decent shocks. Basically a GTI with an extra foot of glass & steel. Highway manners are superb. Perfectly happy to cruise all day at 70 mph, ( @ 40 mpg ) or 80, or a bit more..... Car does not hum. Does not purr. Growls, quietly. I like that. Torque. Torque. Worth mentioning twice. 236 ft. lbs. doesn't seem huge, but it's the same as the Dodge 3.8 V6, and it just keeps coming. At 70 mph it simply doesn't bother to downshift in the hills of NY, PA, & WV. And never seems to need to. Just charges right up the hills in cruise control like it's level ground. In contrast the '13 3.6 Caravan struggles on the same terrain, and must shift on hills even with twice the HP. Cons. Car is out of warranty and of an age where it needs the expensive maintenance soon, ( I can do some of it myself ) and Parts are stupid expensive on German cars. ( even if they are made in Mexico ) Like $50 for a pair of wind shield wipers. The suspension that can tell you if you roll over a dime or a nickel ( Dime or penny with stiffer tires ) talks to you all the time. Road feel is excellent. It's just on the edge of harsh, which is exactly the sweet spot for handling and enthusiast joy. OTOH it's just on the edge of harsh, and the Caravan, dull by comparison, beat you up less on a trip. The Caravan gets 20-27 mpg, so it's not a total budget buster to get half the mileage on commutes. If I sell the VW, I can use that money to build a garage without going into more debt, ... which would be nice on so many levels. | ||
| Torquehd |
Aesquire my mom has an 02 jetty TDI. I hate driving cars, except for that one. Even in 2002 the TDIS made enough power to climb long grades at 80 mph without even breathing hard. I hate to admit it but I like VWs, so long as theyre TDI's | ||
| Aesquire |
I agree. The gas powered VW's just don't excite me as much. You can get good power out of them but they cost a bit high per thrill. I don't like the idea tuner boxes will get outlawed. Probably because I think of getting one. | ||
| Arbalest |
I read recently that the feds were pursuing a complete ban on aftermarket exhaust systems, even if the bike was to be used on the racetrack. Has anyone heard any more in this issue? | ||
| Crusty |
I read recently that the feds were pursuing a complete ban on aftermarket exhaust systems, even if the bike was to be used on the racetrack. Has anyone heard any more in this issue? Oh NO!!! think of all those poor dead people when their lives weren't able to be saved by Loud Pipes! | ||
| Teeps |
Non CARB compliant aftermarket exhaust systems have been illegal in CA. for decades. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I read recently that the feds were pursuing a complete ban on aftermarket exhaust systems Of course they are. The limits of their need to control everything and everyone has no bounds. | ||
| Ourdee |
What happens if I go to CA to visit my son on my Scg and they check my exhaust? | ||
| Pwnzor |
Just stay away from "bike night" events, or Huntington Beach altogether. | ||
| Teeps |
Ourdee Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - What happens if I go to CA to visit my son on my Scg and they check my exhaust? Good question. I suppose if your bike had an Illinois plate and you an Illinois driver license, nothing. At this time there is no vehicle check, emissions or otherwise, for motorcycles or scooters. But that does not prevent a rider from getting a fix-it ticket for "non functional exhaust", which would be at the officers discretion. Same violation as a rotted out stock muffler... In close to 50 years of riding motorcycles in CA. I've never had a cop ticket me for modified exhaust. Though I did get some dirty looks from a Palos Verdes cop one day whilst riding my VTX1300 with Cobra Short straight pipes... |
