| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
The number one murderous death cult religion is Marxism. A jealous religion that is intolerant of all others and based on, dependent on, lies & hate for power. ( if you were told it was an economic system.... that's one of the lies ) Islam ( not Muslims ) is a political weapon & religion rolled into one. There was progress but in the 13th century the priests grew furious that the liberals were winning, and went super militant intolerant, as specified in the book. Been downhill ever since in every place that they were the majority. The greenies are a Marxist sub cult. The Catholic Church's latest Pope is a Liberation Theology type, a deliberate perversion of Christian faith. ( unlike obedient Islam, which is the purest original form, not a perversion as some western idiots insist. This mantra that the terrorists are a perversion of the Faith was popular in the Bush the Younger admin.. & still is. ) Then there are several tiny local cult of personality churches that pretend to be mainstream but are really cash cows for the preacher and his minions. Many but not all Televangelist types fall in this category. But they are not a major threat like the first 2 mentioned above. If you see a place in the world that "Hell Hole" describes well, you can bet it's run by Marxism or Islam. Pakistan, suburbs of Paris, the Rochester NY school system.... the examples are endless.  | ||
| Torquehd |
If you see a place in the world that "Hell Hole" describes well, you can bet it's run by Marxism or Islam.  | ||
| H0gwash |
"You need to separate those who are religious and commit violence from those who commit violence because they are religious." I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Can you restate or expand a bit? | ||
| Sifo |
"You need to separate those who are religious and commit violence from those who commit violence because they are religious." I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Can you restate or expand a bit? Sure. People of all religions are just people. Far from perfect. All will do sinful things. Some will commit violence. Those generally fall into the first category of those who are religious, but commit violence. These are acts of violence committed by everyday people. Some happen to be religious. Then we have the other category. Those who commit violence because their religion commands them to. Kill the infidel, stone the rape victim, throw gays off of tall buildings, etc., all because their religion tells them that it is the right thing to do. These are acts of violence committed by people because of their religion. I can only think of two examples of religions in the modern world that commit violence as part of the adherence to the religion. That would Islam and various forms of Statism. | ||
| H0gwash |
I apologize if you've already answered this 10,000 times- Do you consider the old testament part of the christian bible? If no, I see the logic in what you've been saying. If yes, I am really confused and will have to think some more. | ||
| Sifo |
I do. And as has been pointed out by others, the New Testament is the new covenant between God and man. I think your confusion could come from listening to what you have been told Christians believe, vs. what is actually taught in the Christian churches. Do your own eyes not tell you that Christianity, as well as pretty much all religions, are not performing the horrific acts of violence in the name of their religion that you see happening with Islam? | ||
| H0gwash |
I'm still confused. So, you believe the old testament is part of the Bible but is not to be enforced like the new testament is to be enforced or something like that? Sorry, I stayed far away from churches and am ignorant of the precise meaning of one covenant versus another. I also know of those who seem to shoot into gay bars presumably as an enforcement of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and such in the name of Christianity, there is not much other explanation for such random violence. I will certainly concede that the jihadists are far more efficient. | ||
| Sifo |
I'm still confused. So, you believe the old testament is part of the Bible but is not to be enforced like the new testament is to be enforced or something like that? Sorry, I stayed far away from churches and am ignorant of the precise meaning of one covenant versus another. If you seriously want a better understanding of this topic, and how it relates to the verse in Leviticus you reference, please read this... http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/homo.php It can explain it far better than I ever could. Or simply Google something like "Bible on killing gays" and pick some at random. I also know of those who seem to shoot into gay bars presumably as an enforcement of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and such in the name of Christianity, there is not much other explanation for such random violence. You've made mention of this before, and I've asked for some information on this. Surely this hasn't been ignored by the press, has it? More likely, and this appears to be the case from what you wrote, you are attributing a motive to something where you have no means of determining that motive. Do you even know if the individuals considered them selves to be Christian? Did they make any reference to the Bible to justify their crimes? Or are you perhaps, just attempting to promote a false narrative that suites you? You made mention of how hard it is to have honest conversation about topics like these. You will find there are an abundance of people on this board who are more than willing to do just that. It helps to reply in kind. I'm not completely convinced that you are doing your part. At least, you certainly are failing to provide any information on how you arrive at your conclusions about Christianity. Of course it's entirely possible that you simply choose to listen to those who will lie to promote a shared false narrative. I really can't say. | ||
| Gregtonn |
You could replace reference to Cameron with Obama and it would still make perfect sense. https://player.vimeo.com/video/167607521 G | ||
| H0gwash |
I arrive at conclusions about Christianity by talking to self professed Christians around me, typically over the internet. I find wide variation regarding how gays are viewed by Christians. My conversations are typically less than academic conversations characterized by lots of verses thrown about very loosely tied together. Those conversations are sometimes, but rarely, as nuanced as the article you referenced, which I greatly appreciated. After reading it I can now see a consistent logic in your posts which initially struck be as overbearing. You had asked for some real information on christian gay bar shootings. I have included the following search terms for some examples. Ronald Gay Roanoke christian soldier kingdom identity ministries Puzzles New Bedford Eric Robert Rudolph Otherside Lounge Matthey McLaughlin Sodomite Suppression Act I suppose my view of Christians has been skewed by a fear of arbitrary persecution by "crazies" and I suppose I am once bitten and a thousand times shy. | ||
| Aesquire |
I suppose I am once bitten and a thousand times shy. And as far As I'm concerned, stay that way. It's NOT paranoia when an entire religion wants you dead. How many gays are killed by rednecks in the U.S. every year? One is too many. I know it's higher than that. Beatings and discrimination are far more common, and unacceptable to civilized man. Every Life Matters. How many gays are killed by Obedient Islam every year? As many as are accused. Check Al Jazeera for today's executions. Not going to go into the statistics on participation rates in terror. Lots of great folk are Muslim. Few are murderous savages. Let's take an informed guess that less than 100,000 but more than 10,000 active or fast potential Jihadi are with us today. Tiny fraction of the population. Men from all over, who their neighbors never thought would do evil, flock to Syria and Iraq to "Fight Satan". Prime motivation is either to be Obedient to the Word of the Prophet, or to get laid with a captured sex slave. From Facebook accounts I'd guess the "can't get laid because I'm a jerk so I'm going to buy some teenagers" ratio is pretty darn high. Equating the rednecks who kill gays because they have sex issues with the Di&^heads that kill you because it's Holy Law, ( and sex issues ) is silly. Isolated phenomena vs. Organized Crime. | ||
| Torquehd |
Levitical law was specifically for Hebrews living from around 3,000 BC to 33 (ish) AD. The laws were harsh because they were supposed to be God's holy blameless people, but they were "a stiff necked people" and were continually indulging in everything that God told them not to. Note that the punishments for those laws were presumably seldom enforced, because the people as a whole were so often serving pagan Gods and disregarding everything that God told them. Because they were continually getting it wrong, and the law was nothing but condemnation to them, God began speaking through prophets of a messiah who would come and redeem them and establish a kingdom without end. Jesus came and FULFILLED ALL of the law. He broke it in the same way that world records are broken. He didn't nullify it, he completed it and gave us a new "world record" to live by. The New Covenant which is sometimes called the New Testament (not the 27 books of the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation, that was named after what Jesus declared as the New Testament). Jesus's commandments were recorded in the 4 gospels, but a lot of old Jews wanted non-jews to live like they were under the old laws. This was addressed by Paul in the book of Acts and elsewhere, that "they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." Although I've been a Christian since I was 7, I didn't really understand the New Covenant until I was 31. It's right there in the bible, I just hadn't read all the way through the bible until I was 31/32 (this year!). And I still have so much to learn! | ||
| H0gwash |
I feel like I'm being asked to choose which sucks less, locally sourced domestic non-liturgical terrorists or exotic imported highly educated terrorists. It's kind of a tie, they both suck. Interesting backstory. When I first tried reading a bible (can't remember which edition, even) it did strike me as tremendously involved and thick with metaphor and imagery. I found it mostly incomprehensible. | ||
| Torquehd |
Maybe in times past. Today, it's "agree that homosexuality is right or we'll break you". Oh, and "agree that islam is right or we'll break you". I don't force anyone to accept my beliefs, and I'm not OK with anyone forcing me to accept their beliefs. I'm not saying you're doing that Hog (good talk in fact) I'm saying the current administration is doing that. It's what islam is founded on. It's what communism is founded on. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Lots of great folk are Muslim. Few are murderous savages. Is the first part because they are not "true" to the religion? Levitical law was specifically for Hebrews living from around 3,000 BC to 33 (ish) AD. So the Ten Commandments were "living breathing" suggestions that became malleable about 33ish AD? G | ||
| Aesquire |
Correct. Disobedient to the rules. The Christian vs Old Testament part I'll leave to the scholars. Sorry HOgwash if you can't decide between a culture that has a few individuals who are evil and has as law their actions are wrong. .... and a culture that insists you are evil and by law should be murdered, then I must assume you are suicidal. Or feel free to move to Iran and wave your rainbow banner. Should be no different by your logic. Here people argue with you. There they hang you by the neck from a crane and the crowd cheers.. If that's the same your trigger points need calibration. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/saudi-arab ia-pushes-homosexuals-executed-7672283 | ||
| Aesquire |
http://heavy.com/news/2015/09/new-isis-islamic-sta te-videos-photos-authority-of-the-caliphate-in-wil ayat-al-jazeeral-jazirah-sorcerer-homosexual-gay-e xecution-full-uncensored-youtube-sendvid/ | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/03/31/saudi-arabia- push-for-gays-to-be-executed-because-social-media- is-making-too-many-homosexuals/ | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/ 2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosex uality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/ | ||
| Aesquire |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_exe cuted_for_homosexuality Notice this list stops nearly two centuries ago. Last ones executed for sodomy , 1835. Man, that has to suck to be the last. The irony is lost on them. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ira n 4000-6000 gay men and lesbians executed since 1979. | ||
| Aesquire |
You are not being asked to choose between red necks and institutional murder. That's a straw man. B.s. Culture where you can complain vs. You die. THAT'S the choice. ( I die too. Pagan, remember? I have a personal stake you seem determined to ignore. ) | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/07/th e_violence_in_bangladesh_this_is_what_happens_when _islam_takes_over.html | ||
| H0gwash |
I will agree that Christians who say gays should not be killed for gay sex are better than anybody who says gays should be killed for gay sex. | ||
| Blake |
But H0gwash, the question though is not as you frame it, as one concerning individuals. The question is whether you imagine Christianity (Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, etc...) with the example of Jesus of Nazareth as the ideal, and the BIble as the revelation of God and His relationship to us no differently from Islamism, (totalitarian Mullahcracies/theocracies like Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, Daesh, Al Qaeda, etc) with the example of Mohommad as their ideal man, and the qur'an as the supreme revelation of God. Jesus Christ per the Gospels versus Mohammad per the qur'an and Hadith, no different? Neither good, both good, one good the other bad? That is the question. One served, healed, loved, forgave and suffered and died that all might be redeemed. The other murdered, conquered, pillaged, oppressed, enslaved, raped, all while formally contriving a brutal totalitarian ideology aimed at total global conquest. And you still haven't answered my question, have you? What if Jesus is who he claimed to be? He said that all of God's law is encapsulated in two commandments, Love God, and Love People. The hard part there for all of us is that we tend to craft our own version(s) of God, which means we lie about His true nature. That's not very loving, is it? Listening to our conscience is very different from rationalizing our behavior. (Message edited by Blake on July 03, 2016) | ||
| Blake |
It sounds like you're nearly answering, trying to answer, but the question is admittedly vague, so in hopes of clarifying, if Jesus is who he claimed to be, would you follow Him? Would you repent of your sins, pledge your life to His way, and accept His forgiveness? An afterlife is not contingent upon acceptance of God. You will have an afterlife either way. The state of that afterlife is contingent upon acceptance or rejection of God. Free will is the rule. No one who rejects God is forced to abide with Him, the omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, perfectly just logos, the one true eternal, unchanging, bedrock locus of all that is good. (Message edited by blake on July 03, 2016) | ||
| Aesquire |
Hey! How about Wiccans that say you shouldn't be killed for gay sex? You seem to say "could be better" is equivalent to "hell on Earth" which is either stubborn propaganda or willful denial. The Orlando jihadi may have picked a gay club because he was "self hating gay" according to news bozos. That's both prejudiced and a deliberate distraction from his cause and religion. If he'd been infertile he might have chosen a Chuck e cheese full of children instead. His reasoning on WHO he chose to murder has nothing to do with WHY he chose to murder. Orlando wasn't another incident in the long history of uptight sexually repressed individuals breaking the law to.pick on those they fear or don't understand. Those cases are horrible but not acceptable to almost every religion. Orlando is when a religion is locked into a system of sexual repression by laws from twelve hundred years ago and reinforced by old men preacher perverts who Couldn't get laid anywhere. The folk here on this board, Christians or pagan or atheists all have commented on and mock the hypocrisy of that culture of Islam that murders gay men & women while considering sex with young boys normal. No one I recall here cheered the mass murder of our fellow citizens in Orlando because they may have been gay. They had street parties in Palestine. Congratulations on Twitter from around the world. But if you just want to argue fatuous religious stereotypes from a position of ignorance with the Christians here, go ahead. You will.be mocked for straw man arguments & other logical fallacies. And the jihadi will still keep on killing. Because all cultures are not equal. (Message edited by aesquire on July 03, 2016) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hogwash, it's, well, it's complicated. Here are things that I have come to believe after a lot of time and thought about (and I believe with) God. Many will find these heretical, and they may be right, I'll never claim to be without sin or without error. Israel was a theocracy. It was both simultaneously the religion, and the structure of government. This jacked some things up then, just like it jacks some things up now. So the old testament was a mix of both the law of man and the law of God. An example of that is the tithe... it was both the Hebrew tax code and system for funding the government, and the contribution to the church for funding the church, all wrapped up together. Laws were the same... so were the kosher rules the will of God? Or were they health and safety government rules prudent for a nomadic culture of the time? They say don't eat pork. Today we tell restaurants they need to rinse dishes in a solution of 5% bleach. That's the first big hairball of the whole thing. The second big hairball is (what I believe was) the arrival of the son of God, and his sacrifice on the cross. This didn't invalidate the old testament law, but it massively changed our relationship to it. The best analogy I can use is somebody who rents a house for 10 years, and then buys the house and owns it for the next 10 years. Same house, same person, but their relation with the house and the rules and constraints on them are very different. In the last 10 years, they don't need to call anyone for permission to take out a wall. But they also have to pay for their own new water heater if it dies. In a nutshell, in the old testament times, all were sinners, and the price of sin was sacrifice. None of us could ever sacrifice enough to make up for our sin. So it was like making monthly payments on a credit card bill when you can't even afford the accruing interest. When Christ came, and willing sacrificed himself for us, he was the "perfect sacrifice". He basically sent our credit card company a check for infinity. He paid off our debt because he loves us, and we love him. So I actually believe (cringing now for my fellow believer Blake, who is probably shaking his head and praying for me now as he reads this ) that some of the old testament is no longer relevant because of time, some is no longer relevant because the religion has been separated from the government (a good thing, IMHO), some is no longer relevant because my "debt" is now to Christ for his sacrifice, and it went from something like a bank loan to something like parents ransoming a loved child, or a spouse working so their family can thrive. So a completely different kind of debt, one built on love. (I also believe there was human corruption in the old testament. And probably even in the new testament. I see Godly people today, including myself, get things really wrong sometimes and learn. So long as we have free will, which we must have to love geninuely, I think we also have the ability to make mistakes, and I think that can happen in scripture as well. And I think if we work hard to follow the words of Christ, the spirit of God in us, and to love everyone around us, that is how we best and most accurately follow Christ.) (Message edited by reepicheep on July 03, 2016) (Message edited by reepicheep on July 03, 2016) | ||
| 86129squids |
Reep- lunch and beer on me if you ever make it to Mur-vil TN. I've been too busy to do much but scan this thread, especially since Hogs jumped in. LOTS of thoughtful input, which I love and cherish in my friends. I'll go back a ways and READ, ruminate. I like your view, thanks for sayin'. Happy Sunday and happy/safe Independence Day to you all! |
