| Author | Message | ||
     H0gwash |
The angle of Omar Mateen being a self hating closeted gay muslim who shoots up a gay bar to redeem himself in the name of jihad and allah so that he can go to muslim heaven and enjoy a harem of women as a straight man IS EXTREMELY EXTREMELY NARROW and doesn't really impact other common Orlando related arguing points. It does imply that closeted gay muslims might shoot up other gay bars in similar atttempts to go to and enjoy muslim heaven as a straight man, especially if ISUL doesn't disavow Mateen now that the gay angle has come out. That fear among gays who frequent such club has sparked new interest in existing gay shooting clubs who are now recruiting members to train them how to responsibly handle guns. It also goes to show belief in any religion is ultimately personal and not universally logical. Yes, most Christians believe mostly the same things, but the many Christian denominations that are out there exist because of differences, not similarities. Muslim belief is similarly not always uniform among its congregants. This is why I think muslim gun control is too narrow a goal. Traditionally, people who call themselves christians shoot at gay bars in the US, not muslims. | ||
| Aesquire |
This is why I think muslim gun control is too narrow a goal. What nutcase wants that? | ||
| Reepicheep |
That's just it, neither narrative fits the liberal media agenda. Radicalized jihadist terrorist? Nope, can't say that because it means Bush might have been right, and Obama and Clinton have lead the world into disaster. Self hating gay murdering other gays? Nope, can't say that, because gays can't just be people (for better or worse), they have to all be snappy dressing smart and gentle people. So clearly, it's the NRA's fault, because Christians. Its just fun watching how far they will try and reach. | ||
| Sifo |
Traditionally, people who call themselves christians shoot at gay bars in the US, not muslims. I'm not familiar with this tradition. Please elaborate. | ||
| H0gwash |
I should add that I have no solutions here. Whatever gun control can be done legally doesn't directly affect those with criminal intent. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Sounds like hogwash to me | ||
| H0gwash |
Hello Sifo: you're right, I should have used the word "typically" not "traditionally." | ||
| Sifo |
Can you give an example of this "typical" shooting? | ||
| H0gwash |
Google "gay bar shooting" and pick a random article. Read description of suspects. Note if any fatwa or jihadist statements were made, then consider ethnicity and religious upbringing. Basically, the overwhelming US Christian populations around gay bars largely determine that crimes of opportunity at the bar are done by people who call themselves Christians. Some will clearly not be Christians, but most will be. | ||
| Sifo |
In other words you are just blaming Christians for acts done by random people. Sure, that makes sense.  | ||
| Court |
"Hogwash" pretty well sums it up . . . Hahahaha . . . . But, I'll keep my eyes out for those pesky Christians. | ||
| H0gwash |
Random people in the US tend to identify as Christians, even if they've never gone to church, so I think it does make sense. This is not to say that all Christians are somehow guilty for the crimes of a few crazy people. | ||
| Sifo |
I will say that Hogwash manages to fulfill the flawed mental processes of the stereotypical Californian. Based on his reasoning, everyone who posts from California is likely to be equally flawed. Happily, it simply doesn't work that way. | ||
| H0gwash |
I did say upfront that it was an EXTREMELY EXTREMELY NARROW angle. As a Californian I have a particular perspective. I thought I could add a little bit to the debate. I am not a gun owner but wouldn't be objected to one just don't know much about them only that ammo is quite expensive. | ||
| Court |
Actually ... I welcome and enjoy the diverse reasoned, even from different and narrow angles, expressed here. I like being exposed to how those who's view differ from think and shape their thoughts. It's the reason I couldn't be a democrat. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I am not a gun owner but wouldn't be objected to one just don't know much about them only that ammo is quite expensive." "Expensive" is relative. You can buy a box of 50 .22LR cartridges for about the same as a Starbucks latte. You might have some fun going to an indoor range getting an instructor to help you out and renting a pistol. You will most likely enjoy yourself and it may give you a more realistic view of guns and those who use them. G | ||
| Sifo |
Or it may bruise you and leave you traumatized with PTSD!  | ||
| Aesquire |
HOgwash, you ride, right? Checking your profile you ride one of the best bikes ever made. The M-2. ( so do I ) Ever try and explain to a non rider the fun of moving in four dimensions on a road bike? Usually there is some common ideas, most Americans rode a bicycle when they were kids. Shooting sports? As toys go you can spend a lot of money on bling and pretty. The old school blued steel and walnut shotguns with engraved steel and hand checkered wood are art. The stainless or coated steel & plastic guns aren't as pretty, but function exactly the same. Much cheaper too. When I shoot trap ( shotguns ) at the local club, I usually use a plastic stocked ( fiber filled for strength ) black plated ordinary looking gun while the guy next to me shoots a lovely chromed & engraved bit of art work. The only reason he's better than me is practice. We've swapped guns and he kicks my butt with my own. Now, I admit I'm a geek. Computer geek, gun geek, whatever, for both it's a question of caring about tiny fractions of an inch and fractions of a second and speeds beyond normal experience. These tiny differences do matter in the real world, but unless you are into it, it's boring. That said, IMHO opinion the attraction of guns isn't power, or ridding yourself of powerlessness, ( which is a factor, especially in the cases of rape & abuse ) or some macho thing, ( although youtube is full of idiots bragging about imaginary prowess and manhood. Jerks. Youtube is also full of people doing stupid things on trampolines. ) No, Its action at a distance. You work a lever very carefully with fine muscle control learned with hard practice... and a clay pigeon goes "poof". Or a hole appears in paper a football field away. Or the steel plate makes a very satisfying clang noise. It's freaking FUN. On the political side it's actually simple. For 200 years in this country, and the History of Mankind everywhere, there are people who don't want anyone else to have any power. The root of power is the ability to do violence or defend yourself from violence. Kings often banned swords ( the bada&& weapon of all time ) except to his own minions. The second the Civil war was over they tried to take away rights from the ex-slaves. Examples are endless. It gets down to. Evil people want to take your guns. Oh, if not guns, knives, baseball bats, whatever. And since for all of history disarming the peasants is the goal of evil people, when some body tells me I shouldn't have a gun I know, from thousands of years of history, they are parroting the ideas of evil men. The guy in front of me may just be ignorant, or not care about anyone but his own power, or outright satanic. Doesn't matter. Bad guys have weapons. Bad guys don't want good guys to have weapons. Thus it has been since the state of the art was a rock on a stick. Good guys are a little tired of that crap. | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, and thanks to a lot of dedicated activists, more people are able to carry a weapon, legally in the U.S. than any time in history. And violent crime has gone down in direct proportion. More guns, safer world. Fact. The Orlando Jihadi just Used a gun. If there weren't any he'd have used a bomb, or a machete. People killed people where there is no gun within miles or centuries and still do today. | ||
| Glitch |
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." ~Robert A. Heinlein | ||
| Blake |
Bill, "In my opinion, it is a significant detail that does change the narrative significantly." Would you please explain this, cause I don't see it. Are you saying that a homosexually inclined Islamist terrorist is motivated differently compared to heterosexual Islamist terrorists? Or are you saying it was the first ever homosexual on homosexual motivated mass-murder disguised as Islamist terrorism? Or something else? If the motivation was Islamist jihad, what difference does sexual predilection make? | ||
| Tootal |
Patrick, you mentioned a while back that you were basically surprised that we agree on something. I'm really curious as why? At this point we really need to get together and have a few beers because I'm not seeing a whole lot of differences in our beliefs! I'm heading out next week. I don't know if I'm in a car or bike. Depends on the temps at this point. I'm in a wedding in Detroit on the 2nd. After that I'm just traveling around a bit. Might make New York state for a bit. I think I need to buy you a drink! Or vice versa... | ||
| Blake |
Patrick is just being humble; he's typically surprised that anyone agrees with him. That and he may be a bit of an intentional non-conformist. Not sure if he likes women with hairy legs and armpits or not. | ||
| Blake |
Bill,
Well stated. Not sure about the "fun to watch" sentiment though. It's painful for me. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://fredoneverything.org/hussein-obama-50-ameri ca-0more-adventures-in-multiculturalism/ I don't always agree with Fred. An American expatriate in Mexico. Blake, it depends on the personality. Plus I know how to shave.  | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
"Hogwash" pretty well sums it up . . The younger crowd aren't familiar with that term. | ||
| H0gwash |
I think I'll have to start with an itty bitty gun. Guns strike me as a particularly unforgiving tool that I know particularly little about. For example, I have to google ".22LR cartridge" to see what the heck that is. It would be interesting to butcher and cook a kill one day though, that could be a personal goal. There is a specialty butcher in nearby Jackson who will store your kill as you slowly munch on it so it can't be totally illegal yet. There is a pic of my 2000 M2 at http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/43/ 110168.html?1466861124 FYI I use my screen name as a sort of 'ultimate disclaimer' because I do have some pretty far-out ideas and I don't want to be thought of as a troll. I just don't find community value in posting the same old stuff so I post the crazy stuff and figure if it doesn't catch on, well that's okay, I posted it as h0gwash anyway. | ||
| Gaesati |
"power grows out of the barrel of a gun" Mao Tse Tung | ||
| Aesquire |
Although I no longer hunt much I highly encourage it. Many people augment their protein for the family by hunting. Lean meat, free range, organic food. I've been too broken to haul 200 pounds of deer out of a ravine for a while. Since over the centuries we've eliminated natural predators man must act to keep the balance of nature..... we are part of it after all...... without hunting species like deer overpopulate and have horrific cycles of starvation and overgrazing. Plus the higher death toll on our roads. I also enjoy varmint hunting. Historically and right now especially in third world countries rodents eat a major portion of stored grains and other foods. The Peace Corps still teaches by doing building rat resistant storage in places where the rats thrive and humans perish horribly from malnutrition. So I bought a gun for the express purpose of hunting rodents at long range to help local farmers. Wood chucks dig dens that tractors can fall into, flipping and killing the farmer. That's not a generic example, I've known widows. You need to take a hunter safety course to legally hunt even rats today. Most news stories about hunting are woefully ignorant. And often tinged with sarcasm about a culture that city boy reporter types are baffled by. Almost all news stories about guns are full of outright lies. Almost as if there was a vast conspiracy against rights and normal civilization. Because there is. I can give you the web sites. | ||
| Aesquire |
Here's a site known for it's dishonesty the last 7 years. the people there have armed guards with machine guns & sniper rifles & anti aircraft missiles. Travel in armored convoys and private jets with laser, chaff, & flare anti-missile defenses. Fear you are going to murder them. Lie about guns and crime all the time to take your civil rights. Close friends to the several terrorist organizations. The Communist Party USA? www.cpusa.org no although they are close buddies and often give speeches there. I mean www.Whitehouse.gov |
