| Author |
Message |
    
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 06:44 pm: | 
|
I'll admit the video posted makes it look good. First I've seen it though. At that price it would be nice if they offered an affordable training round with similar characteristics of recoil and trajectory. I wouldn't mind a high price for a limited supply to give to the bad guy, but it would make me not want to practice. That's all the negative I will say about it right now.
Remember the R.I.P. bullet that was the hot thing for a few weeks not long ago? That one was a massive fail once you got past their marketing. This one looks to have much more potential. Is it better than a HP though? It can't clog, so that's a plus. I'll have to see what I can find on what the terminal ballistics look like. I don't see it expanding like a HP, but I could be wrong. Can it open a similar wound channel? My speculation would be based on ignorance at this point. At the moment, I've got bigger fish to fry. Wrapping up the details of a real estate deal.  |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 06:57 pm: |
|
Blake, YEP, looks like the Lehigh Defense is a parallel development. Same concept, of radial force dispersion, but very different materials.
Mtnmason,
pattern loading or using different loads in the same magazine, is not new. Folk argue about it but I won't, except to say you want every round in the magazine to hit to same point of impact. If so, good to go.
It was popular with shotguns when I was much younger, loading bird/buck/slug, but now that we have cheap ballistic gel and have proven that bird shot is stupid to use on large animals... it's less popular.
( and I cannot emphasize that Bird shot has got more than one person killed when it just hurt an armed bad guy, and will not stop them. It won't penetrate enough to go through the rib cage and hit a vital organ. Proven. Do not use it for defense. I used to favor it and was wrong )
Ball? Why? there are better choices, unless your pistol only likes ball. In that case try Federal Guard Dog. It does lack a bit in the penetration dept. But it is extraordinary in that it expands very consistently, every time.
The problem with Ball ammo is it pokes a caliber sized hole to let the angry out. And not a bit more. It does penetrate well, which in a .380 is a good thing, and in a 9mm over penetrates. very bad.
Sure, I don't want to get shot with a .177 pellet out of a good pellet gun. Much less a .380.... Like I said,it's "considered marginal" but that judgment is obsolete IMHO. With ball, it's marginal to poor. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 07:04 pm: |
|
I am impressed with the Lehigh bullets. Gotta go buy some... & hope the function well.
I don't care how magical and techno a bullet is, if it jams up your gun, you're better off with ball.
And I know I mock ball. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 10:33 pm: |
|
Bill, exactly, and with the fluted solid copper bullet, penetration remains excellent. Other manufacturers also offer very high velocity, light for caliber bullets, but they're hollow-point or plastic tipped or some other form of expanding bullet and have poor penetration as a result. The Glasser "safety" bullets come to mind. |
Mtnmason
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 10:37 pm: |
|
Aes -
The 'pattern loading' is something I'd never heard of with defensive pistols until a few years after I started carrying.
My first use of the practice was in seeing if I could get it to jam the FNX. I'd load several mags with the most convoluted mash (steel/alum case, JHPs, FMJs, diff weights), limp-wrist it, 500+ rds w/o cleaning, etc. - Never a hiccup! I'll always have that pistol.
IF I'm ever doing any winter riding and someone decides to jack the ol' XB at the gas station; and IF said bike wrangler only has a Jiminez .380, I WOULD be in full leather with layers underneath and would HOPE he was loaded with "cop killas" and not range ammo.  |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 10:40 pm: |
|
You shoot someone for stealing a motorcycle . . . .what you're wearing will be the least of your problems.
:-) |
Mtnmason
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:04 pm: |
|
Absolutely not!!! Although I'm NOT morally opposed to defense of property with deadly force. It worked in the cowboy days - dont wanna get shot? Dont steal a horse.
I should have painted that hypothetical in a little more detail. I was more speaking on being shot at. I typically have the .38 on when riding but trying to clear leather when someone already has the drop on you is less than optimal based on the minimal training I've been given.
(Message edited by mtnmason on June 21, 2016) |
Mtnmason
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:25 pm: |
|
To the OP -
Apologies for getting off course. You asked for opinions on specific guns and ended up with a mini caliber war and imagined armed attack scenarios. Such is the crowd here sometimes I guess.
A friend of mine has the .380 Sig in "nightmare" trim. It is imminently pocket-able and has decent ergos for it's size. Also surprisingly accurate and points very naturally (for me at least).
Pocket carry was tricky for me. I prefer my snub-nose Smith. The challenge was drawing it well from jeans. Only baggy pants seemed to work well. Great for dress pants.
Let us know what you end up with. Were $$$ no issue I'd have this but she'd mostly be a safe queen:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/1911-em p-40-cal/ |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2016 - 11:27 pm: |
|
Hollow points tend to clog on leather, so you get more penetration... but I get your meaning. This is a fine point of terminal ballistics, and a matter of inches. Take any advantage you can.
But as to the OP....
DOA or SA?
I know this is the source of endless flame... but on the guns in question, do they work well?
I have faith Sig can make a sturdy reliable gun. But the nuances of how you want the switches to work matter.
Does the safety disengage easily? What kind of trigger pull? Long is ok, but crappy is not.
Etc.
I haven't tried either. Much Curious. |
Zane
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 10:07 am: |
|
No worries about the thread jack. It's been an interesting discussion.
As for all these new bullet designs, I think the technology is impressive but I won't carry them. This will be a self defense gun and I'll carry standard hollow point rounds. After the shooting is over I can say I carry the same thing as the police do. I don't want some prosecutor putting me on the stand to explain why I have these super duper man killing bullets. He'll be sure to say I was just looking to try them out by killing the first person to walk by.
As to the two Sigs, yes both seem to be well made, which is what you'd expect from Sig. The price difference between the two models is considerable. I can get the P290 for $379 and the P938 for $589 to about $650 depending on the trim. The safety on the 938 is pretty positive so I don't worry that it would be tripped in a pocket holster.
The issues I'm still researching are: Reliability, which by all accounts is excellent.
Ease of draw from a pocket. This is a mixed bag
Recoil
How easy is it to EDC. As someone else noted, a great gun at home doesn't do you much good in the grocery store parking lot.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
(Message edited by Zane on June 22, 2016) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 11:03 am: |
|
I'm sure I'll get lectured for this, but if I were hypothetically to legally carry a KelTec P3AT, I would hypothetically carry it with a good quality factory loaded FMJ ball ammo.
I also saw a few ballistic tests for ball in a .380 from a short barrel that showed it's not so clear cut that ball is a bad choice.
At the end of the day, simpler is better, and ball ammo is as simple as it gets. It expands less, delivers less energy in some circumstances, but under penetration will never be an issue, and it's reliable. And did I mention it's simple?
I'll settle for a guaranteed .380" wide line drawn all the way through the target. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 11:16 am: |
|
That's just it...it doesn't make that hole. The "material" moves out of the way, the bullet squeaks through, and the "material" moves back into place. It's not a drill bit... |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 11:29 am: |
|
The projectile should be a thin-walled tube of the correct diameter.
.380" cookie cutter!
Somehow, this is an even more disturbing mental image than a hollow-point doing its thing.
Imagine the meat-noodles! Bleahh! |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 12:12 pm: |
|
Zane, but what action & switches do you prefer?
You've got 2 good choices there.... with very different controls.
If your other guns are Glocks or Keltec or Kahr. ... go with the double action only. Same kind of controls same trained responses. No worries on pushing the wrong buttons.... or pushing the buttons wrong.
If you're trained and use a 1911, go with the single action.
Yes you can and some here do use a variety of types. Just be aware of the difference.
"What the police use"..... good logic. This is why many reloaders won't use a custom load. "So you deliberately use extra deadly bullets? You monster!"
In many cases the LE loads aren't available. But don't despair. Many companies have 2 versions. Hornady has it's "critical duty" for cops and "critical defense" for civilians.
Remember the Black Talon? Great design pulled from the civilian market by dishonest civil rights haters. Cops still use it. I think they changed the name to Ranger.
Cookie cutter bullets, hollow copper tubes with beveled edge & plastic base cap ( falls away after leaving barrel ) were produced years ago. Very little data in the field as they were discontinued shortly. Big well financed propaganda campaign against them..... iirc from PMC in Korea. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 12:27 pm: |
|
Round nose full metal jacket tend to poke a hole that closes behind it. I mean it leaves a hole but it's an ice pick hole not a big one.
Flat nosed bullets aren't as polite and leave a bigger hole. More damage. That's one reason heavy cast hunting pistol bullets have a flat point. Called large meplat ( the flat part ) for big game. You live in grizzly country? You need a big hammer that penetrates. The other reason for a flat nose is to fit as much mass into a restricted length. If a cartridge is just a tiny fraction of an inch too long the gun won't feed and revolvers jam solid.
Hunting deer size critters is different. A bipedal monster shooting up your church or mall is where the 12-18" # comes from. Ninety degrees to torso in all directions is the assumption.
A deer has a horizontal torso. If they are angled away the penetration needed is measured in feet not inches different needs. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 01:51 pm: |
|
So long as the hole exists for a finite amount of time, then it's done its job. Its not like closing it makes everything OK again. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 01:58 pm: |
|
Not all holes are equal. When a bullet opens up like a flower, the petals will do a lot of damage as it passes through the tissue. It can easily be the difference between passing close to something vital, and hitting something vital. A simple puncture wound will close up and limit bleeding very quickly. That is not the way to stop a determined bad guy. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 03:03 pm: |
|
Keep in mind this is all "on the average" and "in most cases". People have been shot multiple times in the chest with a .357 magnum, and calmly waited for the ambulance to get there. Others are gone with damage that some of us just wrapped a rag around and kept working.
I've also been at a motorcycle crash where I couldn't get the guy to sit the F^%$ down until I got his bike picked up and on it's stand on the shoulder. When the Ambulance got there I gave the EMT's the rundown, including, "I'm pretty sure his Tibia is broken, but he won't slow down enough to let me check."
Stats on this subject, however, are pretty well established. I don't recall the writer, but he was a LEO and collected police reports, Medical reports etc. for years to try and figure out what worked and what doesn't. Any kind of ball ammo is well down the list, and .45ACP was further down than you'd think. ( better than 9mm ) Naturally, stuff that came out the last few years has had no time to get worthwhile statistics on. |
Zane
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 07:33 pm: |
|
Well, right now I'm leaning toward the P938. It's lighter and has a much nicer trigger. I still need to go visit Cabela's and try both in my pocket in the appropriate pocket holster. The difference in weight in only 4 ozs but that can make a difference. Lighter = easier to carry = gets carried more = saves my wrinkled arse when it counts.
If I go the 938 route the one must have is the factory installed Hogue grips. They're a black rubber with 2 finger grooves. For my hand, it changes a good grip into a great grip.
I'm really enjoying the Glocks. They seem to be rock solid and I like that big U channel back sight. I'm starting to have AARP eyes so that big back sight is easy for me to find, which makes the front sight easier to find. I do think I'm going to put a green fiber optic sight on the front of the G26 and leave the standard Glock back sight in place. The green is easier to see in bright sunlight and still has good visibility at night. I think that will give me a bit of an advantage building my sight picture in the shortest time possible.
Even though I'll start carrying the Glock's after another 100 rounds or so of proving, I'm comfortable with the 1911 style firearm. In fact I've even caught my thumb sweeping down where a manual safety would be if there was one. I've had some sort of 1911 since the week I turned 21.
I need to find a good school too. I haven't gone through a tactical course in almost 5 years and it's past time to relearn some good skills and unlearn the bad ones. Besides, good technique evolves with time and new and better methods are developed. There are several schools here locally so it shouldn't be a problem. I think if I'm walking around with a firearm, it's my responsibility to be proficient with it or at least not a danger to myself and others. With gun rights go gun responsibilities. I got my original training in my late 20's as a LEO. Spent 5 years doing that before my ex couldn't take it any more. She always was the nervous type.
I haven't decided on what my carry ammunition will be. I'm leaning toward Speer Gold Dot, mainly because that's what I'm familiar with but we'll see what the guns decide.
One more problem has popped up unexpectedly. Getting the Glock 19 away from my younger son Matt. He as fallen in love with it and is staking his claim. He's getting pretty good with it too. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 10:39 pm: |
|
How NOT to sneak into NYC . . . |
Zane
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 11:05 pm: |
|
It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.
Mark Twain |
Mtnmason
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2016 - 11:27 pm: |
|
Thanks guys. That gives our cause a great image. |
|
