| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
There are three types of laws presented in the Old Testament. 1. Israelite civil law. 2. Jewish religious ceremonial law. 3. God's moral law. Audience and context can be vital to accurately understanding a speaker's words, no? Was Jesus speaking to Jews and talking about God's moral law, which applies to everyone, or was he speaking to everyone concerning Israelite civil/judicial and religious ceremonial laws, or possibly a combination of the two? This is where people, including many "Christians" get so confused about Old Testament laws and penalties. The tendency is to conflate "everyone" with "Jews", and also to conflate civil/judicial and ceremonial laws specific to the Jewish people (Israelites), including the those concerning diet, clothing, and other such tangible concerns, with God's moral law. Jesus clarified the proper application of moral law. When confronted about men in His company breaking the Jewish law forbidding working on the Sabath by picking wheat (they had merely plucked and eaten some raw grain as they walked through a field), Jesus rebuked the Jewish religious authorities by noting that "The Sabath is made for man, not man for the Sabath." Of course as we see so often today employed by bad/misguided men exploiting religion for their own benefit, extremely strict and burdensome judicial oversight was used by the Jewish religious leaders of the day as a bludgeon to elevate themselves over the people and hold them subservient to their will. So of course when publicly rebuked for their evil ways, having their hypocrisy exposed, they plotted to get rid of this troublesome Jesus of Nazareth once and for all. We figuratively do the same every time that we elevate our own self interests over what is truly good. The more we do that, the more we alienate ourselves from God/The Good, to the point that greed, lust, power and yes, sexual proclivities and desires come to define a person. Recognizing that tendency in ourselves is the first step. Christians call it "repentance." Absent that, the darkness grows and displaces the light. The insidious nature of the deception is that it happens so cleverly disguised and builds so slowly over time that people may not ever understand what is happening, like the proverbial frog in the pot of slowly heated water. I digress. Christ brought the New Covenant. The old law requiring blood sacrifice was thus superseded. (Message edited by blake on June 17, 2016) | ||
| Cataract2 |
There are three types of laws presented in the Old Testament. 1. Israelite civil law. 2. Jewish religious ceremonial law. 3. God's moral law. Jesus was speaking to Jews and talking about God's moral law, which applies to everyone. He was not speaking everyone concerning Israelite civil law, or Jewish religious ceremonial law. This is where people get so confused about Old Testament laws and penalties. They conflate the Israelite civil laws, including the ones concerning diet, clothing, and other such concerns, with God's moral law. So too with the Jewish religion's ceremonial laws. Christ brought the New Covenant. The old law requiring sacrifice was thus superseded. *cough*cough* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4vsbb1ZYn4 You no read to good. Again, where did Jesus say anything of the Old Testament was null and void. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17) https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesus-did-not-soften-the-old-testament-in-fact-he-did-the-opposite-and-heres-what-that-means/ Cherry picker. Not surprising coming from you though. I have noticed over the years how much you cherry pick to boot. Just another cherry picking hypocrite. (Message edited by cataract2 on June 16, 2016) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Religion is a construct devised by man. Back to the topic at hand can anyone give a good explanation as to why it took the Orlando Police 3.5 hours to extinguish the life of that cockroach? | ||
| Airbozo |
"Christians didn't "give up" on the old testament." Agreed. Poor choice of words on my part. "And you know this how?" Because history tells us so. Society made up stories about a boogeymen that will (do something bad to you for eternity) if you don't behave in a specific way. These stories have been passed down for millennia before any of the religions took hold and they adopted it. "Yes, if only all the world would bow your your specific theism. Perhaps we should start killing those who don't." I guess I am not communicating this properly. I do not believe that others should give up their belief systems and adhere to mine. I believe that everyone should acknowledge that not everyone believes the same thing and you cannot force someone to change under penalty of death. What you believe may work for you, but it does not work for me, Same for my beliefs. It works for me and guides me to be a good human and friend to others. Yes some may be influenced by the specific religions I have been involved with, just like those religions were influenced by that which came before them. My biggest issue is in fact the stance that "My religion is the only religion" and that is what will destroy this world. It was actually a Jesuit Priest I had in one of my religious studies classes that led me to fully understand the following statement: Man invented Gods to explain what he could not. Man invented religion to control other men. | ||
| Sifo |
The crux of all of this religion talk, really should be about what religion(s) are currently taking the stance that they will force people to comply to a religion under penalty of death, or even diminished status. I know of two religions in the modern world that do such a thing. 1) Islam. 2) Statism. Pretty much all other major religions manage to live and let live quite well. | ||
| Blake |
Does objective truth/fact exist? If so, can two things be both objectively true and mutually contradictory? If not, how do you know that? | ||
| Blake |
The idea that the dim history of humanity is evidence refuting the existence of God is quite the inferential leap. Most, the vast, vast majority of humans, cannot do advanced math or science. Your logic would have us inferring that therefore advanced mathematics and science do not exist. Crazy huh. | ||
| Blake |
The silly caricatures of Christianity are not without support from the church, a sad fact. So you're right about religion being used by bad men to exert power over others. But behaving well to avoid hell is not the motivation for people who love Christ. Hell is simply free-willed separation from good/God. All moral law flows from two simple commandments, Love God, and Love People. It's when we lie about who God is that we get off the rails. Were created in His image after all, so anytime we behave contrary to His nature, we are essentially lying about who God is. Islam lies about who God is. | ||
| Blake |
My goodness Cataract, you've exposed the fallacy of two thousand years of Christianity, and then for good measure revealed that Blake is a hypocrite! And right here on BadWeB no less. What will the history books say? | ||
| Cataract2 |
My goodness Cataract, you've exposed the fallacy of two thousand years of Christianity, and then for good measure revealed that Blake is a hypocrite! My goodness Blake. You have no reply or rebuttal to a simple question. Only asked it twice. All on your itty bitty site that is dying ever so slowly. How new. Least you have your fiefdom. (Message edited by cataract2 on June 16, 2016) | ||
| Alfau |
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| Alfau |
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| Blake |
Cataract, trying to conduct bible study with an unbeliever, especially a mean hostile one is pointless. Your question is a straw man. No one has asserted that "the Old Testament is null and void." Jesus certainly didn't. He only stated that the Old Covenant has fallen away, that he is the New Covenant. As I explained earlier, no more blood sacrifice. I have no idea why you are so hostile. Look to the light. Life is good, and too short on this earth to waste it on miserableness. | ||
| Aesquire |
This particular theological question has been briefly discussed. I've not yet read the appropriate chapters so will pass. The broader criticism of "all religions being bogus" was nicely addressed above. Some Man creates a religion. Some man's interpretation of the words of a prophet. An attempt to make workable rules for human interaction. A rational us vs. Them bias. And other noble notions. Also in some cases greed, lust for power over others and certainly some cases of head case. ( you meditate for fifty years in a cave and check your brain chemistry. .. ) Good, Evil, & manipulation of the masses. Good deeds and bad are all done in the name of religion. But. All religions are morally equal is a bogus statement. Untrue. Also a meme used often by evil men. If you distill the intolerant manipulative parts of many faiths to the most pathological, you get leftism. Marx basically ripped off the dark side of morality while cloaking it in arguments for the most noble. Concentrated evil & dishonesty at heart. Islam is a 7th century synthesis to the same ends. Hate & greed for power. It's more than that too. Unlike the Marxist cults Islam is openly honest about it's intentions. There are gems of good moral concepts buried in the pig feces of power for totalitarian. Those ideas are also from older faiths. The real question is how to get a pre-medieval cult to change enough to coexist when it's prime directive is the opposite. | ||
| Torquehd |
Few religions are created by men. I believe a good many of "prophets" have actually had visions, but it wasn't God they were seeing. they were deceived by satan, and that's why their teachings bear semblance to truth, but are not. Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Charles Taze Russell, Sidhartha Guatama, they're all the same. They have all been deceived into the worship of creature more than creator. They all believe that works save. The God of the old testament, of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, even the God of John the Baptist and Paul and John Wesley and Kent Hovind and Jacob Prasch, etc, etc, etc... This is the only God who does NOT accept man's works. That is what separates Christianity from EVERY other religion. Jesus Christ FULFILLED the law, he did not nullify it. What is impossible with man is possible with God. The reason that these other poor fellows were deceived is the same reason that the Pharisees were deceived - they neither knew God nor the power of God. They were deceived by philosophy and vain deceipt, they lifted up their eyes and worshipped the host of heaven, rather than the Creator of the heavens, and the Word made flesh. Jesus can be our messiah only because he was and is God. If he was just another visionary who claimed to see some magical insight in a puff of smoke and shadows, well then he would be just as damned as every other false prophet. But if he was sinless and died as a sacrifice for sinners, and had power to forgive sins, and had power to pick up His life again and ascend to sit at the right hand of the Father, because He and the Father are one.... well then that changes EVERYTHING. | ||
| Alfau |
Who art them other turkeys you mentioned.. I never heard of them ? Paul and John Wesley and Kent Hovind and Jacob Prasch, etc, etc, etc... } | ||
| Blake |
"This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." At the time, they didn't understand that he was talking about himself. It wasn't until a few days later that the true depth of those words would turn confusion and sorrow into profound truth and joy. Who do you say Jesus was/is? Patrick, Finally something on BadWeB of which you're not yet commandingly knowledgeable.  If you're interested... http://www.google.com/search?q=3+types+of+old+test ament+law (Message edited by blake on June 17, 2016) | ||
| Aesquire |
My biggest issue is in fact the stance that "My religion is the only religion" and that is what will destroy this world. That intolerance for other faiths is, today, most dominant in the faiths Sifo points out are the root of most evil today. ( well, most murderous and oppressive evil. Covet, greed, lust for power have long predated Islam or Statism. ) Few religions are created by men. I have to disagree. An Asura did not appear on Earth and Unitarianism spring forth from it's horns into being complete with bylaws and parking lots. OR... Man invented Gods to explain what he could not. Man invented religion to control other men. While the first statement will get a lot of argument, the second is rather obvious. Note that control is not, absolutely, an evil thing. ( although some moral relativists would argue ) Creating rules to live with others is a kind of control. A GOOD religion would push rules that let people live together with less fear and violence. A BAD one would attempt to control people for the sake of control. Contrast a faith that will punish you for not praying on a schedule... and one who's base creed is "an it hurt no other do as you will". The first specifies the Death Penalty for attempting to leave the religion, the second is welcoming to different views. I know which I would prefer to guide my life. | ||
| Aesquire |
The President seems to be doing an end run on the Constitution by handing control over weapons to DHS. The current official terrorist watch list seems to be Veterans, Christians, and people who believe in a Constitutional government. I feel certain that list will now include all armed Citizens... although it will be cloaked in the guise of Mental Illness. After all, it's "Common Sense" to deny arms to Crazy people, and simply by manipulating the definition of Crazy, you can deny arms to anyone. There is however, an outbreak of sanity. It may be futile and temporary, but it's a good sign. http://kdvr.com/2016/06/14/gun-sales-surge-after-o rlando-shooting/ | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, I never claimed omniscience. My knowledge of Curling or Hoverboarding is sadly lacking. ( I have played Squamish, though ) a subset of your reference... http://www.crosswalk.com/church/pastors-or-leaders hip/ask-roger/how-do-we-know-which-old-testament-l aws-to-still-follow.html seems plain enough to me, thanks. A true scholar on the subject would desire more specifics, but you have at least pointed the direction to look. Thanks all. I still need a better analogy to point out the lack of change in the pre-medieval religion that embraces slavery, rape and mass murder in the name of....... | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, I saw a neat documentary on the physics of curling. What would you like to know?  | ||
| Sifo |
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| Sifo |
Funny. In this thread, we have been told to not try to tell other religions what they believe (specifically, Islam), but all you have to do is listen to what they say they believe, as well as look at what they do in the name of Islam. Then we get Cataract2 telling us what Christians believe, base on studies with a non-Christian, despite what Christians say. Back on point though, there are people doing incredible atrocities in the name of Islam around the world. They have been doing so for centuries now. There is no religion that can be remotely compared to this. Of course the classic response is what was done in the Crusades. However if you don't ignore the fact that the Crusades were in response to the horrors brought on by an Islamic invasion, then it's plain to see that there is simply no parity. If Islam is anything other that what we see around the world, then clearly, true Muslims have completely lost control of the message. Look at what happens in Muslim controlled countries though. Just to focus on the gay issue, gays are in fact executed under Sharia law routinely, often in hideous displays such as throwing them off of tall buildings. We don't have to do much study to find what their beliefs are on this subject. Simply look at what they do in Sharia run countries. Want to "study" their beliefs on tolerance of other religions. Just look at the genocide being committed, simply for not being Muslim. Who else throws acid in the face of women for the crime of going to school? Honestly, I have to question either the integrity, or the intelligence of anyone who would even debate this subject. Something simply isn't right with you. | ||
| Slaughter |
None of you have yet to discover that the Government is covering up the FACT that it's the Norwegian Lutherans. It's a cover-up! | ||
| Zane |
"None of you have yet to discover that the Government is covering up the FACT that it's the Norwegian Lutherans." That's strange... I read on the internet that it was really Baptist Jihad or perhaps the splinter group Southern Baptist Jihad... | ||
| Sifo |
Seems this might be a pretty common view among typical followers of Islam. Is lamic Speaker Admits: Killing Gays is a Belief Held by ‘Moderate Muslims’
Time to open your eyes to what a "moderate" Muslim really is. It's not what most people in the US would consider to be moderate. It certainly isn't a picture of tolerance. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Look no further than today's threads where I, a Christian, was called an idiot by another Christian because we differ on our beliefs about old testament law. And look at the (historically accurate) meme posted that showed the Nazi regime was more than happy to couch their evil theology as "Christian" in order to achieve their demonic ends. The term "Christian" means very little when broadly and arbitrarily applied. You have to define the term precisely for it to have any kind of meaning. My beef is when terms are used over broadly. Tossing overly broad generalizations is simply factually inaccurate. There are 1 billion plus Muslims in the world. Which of them are you talking about? Be more precise. The Orlando shooter appears to have been gay, so by the laws of Islam, he wasn't even Muslim, right? I'm just not that interested in hearing imprecise and overly broad generalizations. Be they about Christians, gun owners, Muslims, males, "assault weapons", or gays. "Gay intolerant self hating violent ISIS jihadist wannabes" seems to be the subgroup here we have to start with to start getting precise. | ||
| Sifo |
51% of U.S. Muslims want Sharia; 60% of young Muslims more loyal to Islam than to U.S.
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| Airbozo |
I find this funny; "Or the 60% of Muslim-Americans under 30 who told Pew Research they’re more loyal to Islam than America." When; Most of the conservatives who were running for President are more loyal to Christianity, than America. In fact I would love to see the same question asked of Christians. Somewhat back on track, this is heartbreaking: http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/17/opinions/sutter-orla ndo-shooting-caskets/index.html | ||
| Sifo |
I find this funny; "Or the 60% of Muslim-Americans under 30 who told Pew Research they’re more loyal to Islam than America." When; Most of the conservatives who were running for President are more loyal to Christianity, than America. In fact I would love to see the same question asked of Christians. One minor difference. Sharia law is not compatible with our system of governance. Christianity is not only not in conflict with our system of governance, out system of governance is derived from Christian teachings. OK, that's not a minor difference. It's pretty much the difference between black and white. |
