| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_a |
The current version is the SD9VE. The Ruger SR9E is another option...or the Canik TP9SA. I just found a nice used VP9 and a decent OWB DeSantis leather holster on closeout for $25. It'll make a fine addition. | ||
| Blake |
Check Buds for used police pistols. Makes sense to use the same pistol for all self defense missions, carry, home, truck, whatever. At a minimum at least the same basic "platform". Yeah, a rifle is better for home. Lane, Forget the iron sights. Welcome to the future:  | ||
| Blake |
 Your eye need not even be aligned with sight axis. In a panic situation for a non-marine, the Trijicon RMR is a major force multiplier. | ||
| Rick_a |
I like variety. I have two single action guns with safeties, a DA/SA with a decocker, and will soon have a striker fired pistol. Having all the same gun is boring...though I do have a few AR-15's, but they are all drastically different. | ||
| Zane |
Ok. My son Matt and I spent about an hour and a half at the range today. We shot 200 rounds total and all shooting was done at 7 yards. The guns we were able to shoot were: Glock 26 Glock 17 (They didn't have a 19) Glock 43 M&P Shield Ruger LC9s Ruger SR9c SCCY We also wanted to shoot the Springfield XDS, SV9 and a .44 mag revolver for fun but they did not have any of those in their inventory. I expected to not like the Glock triggers because they get a lot of hate but I didn't have any issue with any of them. All three were a bit mushy but I didn't have a problem with that at all. First we shot the Glock 17 because they did not have the 19 available. Of all the guns I shot I liked the 17 the best. That makes sense since it's the biggest gun with the biggest grip. I was able to keep all my shots in the 9 ring or better. Next we shot the Glock 26. That big blocky grip fit my hand well and again kept me in the 9 ring or better. We both liked the G26 with one minor issue. It came with the extended mag grip. This was a range gun with many thousand or rounds through it and the magazine didn't fit well in the gun or was worn out and flexed and rattled around when in the gun. A new magazine would fix that issue I'm sure. Next was the Glock 43. It fits my hand wonderfully functioned was 100% and I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. I barely kept it on the paper. I think this gun would take a lot of practice to become proficient with. I didn't like the G43 as much as I expected. The M&P Shield was a big disappointment too. It feels great in my hand but the 3 dot sights were a little dirty and I just plain couldn't see them and my shooting reflected that. The target was safe while I was shooting the Shield. Maybe with different sights it would be fine but the original 3 dots just didn't work for me. Next came the Ruger LC9. Very different trigger than the Glocks. I shot this gun and liked it a lot. The trigger was light, smooth and had a crisp break. Everything stayed in the 8 ring or better except for one flyer. I could see this gun in any collection I build. The Ruger SR9c was a surprise. It had a crisp smooth trigger and was big enough that it shot well and had good accuracy . In my opinion, it's a touch big/heavy for concealed carry but as a house or truck gun, it is a winner. The biggest surprise of the day was the SCCY. It was a brand new bright orange fresh from the box gun. Matt and I were the first people to fire it. It was the only gun to function less than 100%. When Mat racked the slide for the first magazine it failed to go into battery. That happened on my first magazine too. There were also 3 failure to eject. But by the end of it's testing, it had settled down and the last 2 magazines functions 100%. I am sure all the problems were related to break in. The trigger was completely different that the other guns. It's a hammer fired DAO and the pull on this trigger felt like it was 3 feet long. Still the breaking point was crisp. When I slowed down, it was also surprising accurate. Both Matt and I kept it in the 8 ring when shooting slowly. Matt and I talked a little about it afterward and the guns we'd buy are: Glock 17/19 We both liked this a lot Glock 26 We both like this gun a lot and I think it might have been my favorite despite the wobbly magazine. Maybe the Glock 43. I might, Matt wouldn't Ruger LC9 A favorite for us both. Ruger SR9c This one is a winner without question SCCY. Despite the new gun break in problems I really liked this one and will be buying one soon. So this is our opinion on these guns. | ||
| Ulyranger |
Rick, I agree. Variety is good thing. Uniformity of platform and manual of arms is important for the military and LEO units, but with proper training there is no reason to limit oneself to such thinking. I know a couple adjustable crescent wrenches could accomplish most nut turning duties, so why have a chest full of many different wrenches, sockets and such........ Because they each have use and I can have them. Having typed all that, I do know why some want to simplify their life and training and there in nothing wrong with that choice either. Good thing we still have choices..... Zane, sounds like a good day at the range with your son. Time well spent. If you liked the G17 in all honesty the 19 is essentially the same gun. Just a tad smaller/lighter. Slightly shorter grip is easier to conceal. | ||
| Rick_a |
My handguns are all different enough it's readily apparent which one is in my hand. | ||
| Zane |
Yeah. Got to hang out with my kid and do something we both enjoy. I'll take a day like that ever day of the week. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Give the Glock 43 more time... With a couple boxes through it, I'm shooting it as proficiently as my 17, just not as accurately at longer distances. | ||
| Zane |
Thumper, After sleeping on the results, I think a G43 is in my future. I'll just have to work a little harder to get proficient with it. I'm also going to get that SCCY. Add the G19 ad the G26 and I think that will hold me for a while. Does anyone have an idea of what a used Keltec P32 is worth. It only has about 1000 rounds through it. The slide has been bead blasted and nickel plated so it's in very good shape. I'm guessing about $150 or so but that's only a guess. | ||
| M1combat |
"Does anyone have an idea of what a used Keltec P32 is worth." $5 | ||
| Thumper74 |
I paid around $200 for a used one, but I think I overpaid. I wouldn't do it again. It's small and easily concealable... but it took so much to get it running right. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
{Yeah, a rifle is better for home.} Do you mean shotgun because a "rifle" would be great for going thru a couple of your neighbors' houses. | ||
| Zane |
When I bought mine, It went from the retailer straight to a Keltec specialist who did the slide plating and a fluff and buff on the innards. It's been 100% reliable so far. I was thinking of letting it go to pay for the SCCY but if it has little to no value, I'll just hang on to it. I know that .32acp isn't much more than a poke in the face with a sharp stick but a mouse gun in my pocket is better than a hand cannon at home. That little Keltec is the easiest gun to carry that I've ever seen. | ||
| Rick_a |
That is a complete fallacy. A lightweight, high velocity rifle round such as .223/5.56 penetrates far less through building materials than hollowpoint pistol ammo and defensive shotgun loads. Its a simple fact that anything that penetrates people also penetrates house. | ||
| Aesquire |
What Rick said. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the- original-box-o-truth/ And.... you do indeed have to aim a shotgun. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-20-buc kshot-patterns/ http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-42-pre cision-shooting-with-buckshot/ Where did those other 7 pellets go? I better know, as I am responsible for everything I send down range. And don't stop reading before the end of the above article. Carbine vs. shotgun. Little guns have issues... but are still better than a pen knife in a fight. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-26-lit tle-guns-vs-the-box-o-truth/ There are a LOT of really WRONG ideas about "firepower" and "stopping power" and what guns actually do out there. I've had to rethink stuff more than once as I learned how WRONG I was. For example, to think birdshot was good for defense. ( still better than a staple gun.... but not much ) Or that anything in a movie has any relationship with reality. The hero can walk through a firefight because it's in the script. In reality small children blocks away, die. And in China, where not only do the Subjects not have guns, but the idea of Rights gets you killed, they have a serious issue with people going into schools and hacking up dozens of small children with a knife. I can't make this stuff up. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I have had absolutely no problems with a KelTec P3AT (.380), bought new. It shot fine, and I did the 15 minute fluff and buff, and it still shoots fine. Several boxes of ammo, and the only failure to feed was one limp handed half cycle of the slide on the first try. Works fine with several brands of ammo too. Not the most accurate gun I have, I didn't try to get it any better than a paper plate at 10-20 yards, and it did that fine when I did my part. | ||
| Court |
>>>>It actually bounced off the blue jean material and only made a dent in it. Hell of a note if you have to fight your way out of a gun battle with your fists against a pissed off guy with his new designed jeans dented. . . . . . | ||
| Reepicheep |
And...
The .380 out of that KelTec P3AT pretty much did as well as the .38 out of the snub nose. That surprised me, but it probably shouldn't have. The .380 is just a short 9mm cartridge. Looking up the load data, it's interesting. Trying to stay close to 110 grains, and sticking with Bullseye powder as the common denominator (because it smells best when you shoot it), you see: .380: 3.1 grains of Bullseye for 100 grain plated bullet 9mm: 3.9 grains of Bullseye for a 110 grain plated bullet .38: 4.6 grains of Bullseye for a 110 grain plated bullet So less powder for the .380, and you can safely crank the .38 *way* hotter than that. But the .38 probably isn't going to do much better in a snubnose because of the short barrel, you can keep adding powder but you are just making more smoke and flame. The .380, using a lighter round, probably makes better use of the available propellant. So they end up fairly close. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Hmmm. I read Aesquire's link and that seems to disprove your theory. The .223 went thru 12 boards of pine and was still moving. And you are assuming the JHP rounds are packing and not expanding, which maybe a likely scenario on a bullet passing thru building materials (but should be noted.) Hell, I did some research on .380 ACP JHP rounds and the vast majority either packed traveling thru multiple layers of denim (and overpenetrated) or mushroomed properly and underpenetrated. FWIW, Precision One XTP seems to be the best defensive .380 ACP round available and the one I am going to put into my Sig. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Not quite sure shooting into water jugs is very scientific, especially when testing JHP bullets. I am not sure ballistics jelly is that great either,but it's the accepted measuring stick. My opinion is a .380 in most"normal" people's hands can put more rounds accurately on target (at probable shootout distances) than a larger caliber handgun. That being said, you are certainly limited by the smaller mag capacity of the .380 but again in reality, I would rather put 6 smaller rounds in the silhouette than spray and pray 10 rounds out of a hand cannon. | ||
| Aesquire |
Fresno, the water jugs were calibrated against ballistic gell. Roughly 2 to 1. So it's a valid test medium, figure half as dense as gell or simply if a bullet goes through two feet of water jugs it's one foot of gell. Heck, to get apples to apples with gell you calibrate each block with a bb gun & chronograph. Then apply a correction factor. Seriously. How accurate is gell? Fair. Sure it doesn't have bones or the various densities you get real world. But. They came up with gell as a more accurate system than pig carcasses, the previous standard, & it's far more repeatable. I can test a round and if I do it right, get the same results as the FBI labs. So better than nothing by far. Not pure anecdotal evidence. The box o truth guys aren't idiots. The use of cloth barrier in front of the jugs is smart. Decent replication of real world on a rational budget. The hollow point clogging with cloth, plaster, wood, glass...... is a real world problem. Polymer tipped bullets will expand where a hollow point won't. That means less wall penetration. There's a reason I like Federal Guard Dog. It will expand. Period. It also is marginal on penetration. Not perfect. I've tested it myself on wall board and wet newspapers. Because it does not depend on fluid dynamics but instead mechanical crushing it is very consistent. Total energy dump on target with most center of mass shots. Polymer tipped Hornady pistol rounds are almost as consistent and approach perfection..... but penetrate a bit more wall. You do have a choice today. Ball ammo is not for defense. It's for practice and when restricted by rules. | ||
| Gregtonn |
This is an interesting alternative to conventional ammunition. http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/personal-defense -ammo/paradigm-shift-polycase-arx-ammo/ Available here: http://clarkarmory.com/ G | ||
| Rick_a |
Most people can't shoot the tiny guns chambered for it worth a damn. I'll take a full size 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, or 357 Mag over any 380 pocket pistol any day plus Sunday. ...and that's pineboards. There's all manner of different mediums to shoot through. Try it sometime. | ||
| Aesquire |
Full size .380, OTOH is easy to shoot. It's not the barrel length, it's the sight radius. the short distance between front & rear makes it harder to shoot well, even if the gun in a vise is super accurate. The size of the handle is important too. And if you have a small handle, the harder it kicks the harder it is to keep control.... and the more likely you are to develop a flinch. Sure, some of us are manly men who have no trouble ever getting a bad habit from the force of catching a fastball bare handed, who sneer at pain, have an iron grip that won't let a girly little snub nose .357 magnum squirm even the slightest bit in their hands, so follow up accurate shots with Eagle Eye and Owl Vision come quick and perfect. Not me, unfortunately. I find a N-frame S&W in .44 magnum pretty much at the top of my comfort zone. ( and the last one I tried was a wickedly accurate weapon ) I also just can't recover from the recoil as fast with a .44 magnum as a .45 ACP. Go ahead, call me a wimp, I could not care less. I also find a small .357 magnum very uncomfortable to shoot, and am fine with .38 S&W Special... even a +p, but not usually a +p+. However, in a N frame, or even a K frame, with decent grips, I have no problem at all with hot .357 loads..... but not for case a day practice. And practice is how you become accurate. In the Semi auto realm, I'm good with an alloy frame Commander in .45 ACP. I haven't tried many of the smaller .45's but don't enjoy a Derringer in .45 much, but it's usable. However, it's not just recoil. And some .380 little guns are hard to make function at all for many people. A straight blowback action has to have a recoil spring strong enough that a lot of people have a hard tome working the action at all. You want a delayed blowback ( like almost all 9mm's, .40's & .45's ) which doesn't need as strong a spring. Trigger pull. Heavy is harder to control. The hammer has to hit so hard, and the trigger has to pull it back against enough spring tension to hit that hard. You must hit the primer hard enough.... that takes X force. If the gun is smaller, so are the lever arms. Physics sucks. The Prez of Ruger wrote he did a lot of gun shows, and women would walk up, pick up a pistol, try the trigger and walk away disappointed. So for the LCR revolvers they put a lot of work into improving the trigger pull. of course, too light a pull is unsafe, period. TANSTAAFL. | ||
| Zane |
Rick, you're correct about little guns being harder to shoot well. My Keltec .32 has more perceived recoil than my .45. It's all because the Keltec weighs next to nothing so there's no mass to absorb the recoil. Its the same with all little guns. They're just harder to shoot. But they are easier to carry and a gun that's easy to carry gets carried more. (Message edited by Zane on December 26, 2015) | ||
| Rick_a |
I shoot some little guns well...snub nose revolvers and the Colt Mustang style guns. I shoot all guns well, really. More I should say I prefer the snubs and Mustang style semi autos. They're enjoyable. The big guns just make it easy. | ||
| Ourdee |
50 from a hand cannon. Plenty of pray light on the spray.  Got sloppy on a few. | ||
| Ourdee |
I find bigger pistols easier to control. On little pistols I put too much pressure on my finger tips. The exception is the Beretta 21a. The grips on it are fat enough for the way I hold it. | ||
| Rick_a |
My 629 was the easiest and most accurate gun to shoot offhand. It practically turned my hands into a ransom rest...until I couldn't handle the magnums no more. I never fired a Special out of it in the decade I owned it. I'm hoping this comes close...  20151116_084317 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr ...though it is NOT a good platform for concealed carry. I do carry this one on occasion:  20140914_094019 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr  20150303_183117_LLS by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr ...but try to minimize use in an attempt to avoid finish wear. Despite the size it carries very comfortably. |
